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Spanish heel or bolt-on construction?
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Author:  ClintB [ Fri May 09, 2008 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Spanish heel or bolt-on construction?
Hi all!

I'll just get right to the question. I'm designing my next classical and I'm having a little trouble deciding whether I should go with a classic spanish style or bolt-on neck. It seems to me that there are pros and cons to each.

My thinking is that the vibration from the neck is better transmitted to the upper bout with the traditional spanish heel, thought I don't know that to really be true. Would a perfectly fitting M & T do the same job?

My only reservation w/ spanish construction is you can't take the neck off (and I'm toying around with the idea of an elevated fingerboard) but since there's so much less string tension on a classical, and since I plan on using two pcs. of CF bar in the neck, a neck reset should never be required anyway.

What are your thoughts? Any advice/correction welcomed. :)
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Fri May 09, 2008 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spanish heel or bolt-on construction?
I say go with whatever you are more comfortable with. And I really doubt vibration transmission in the heel is an issue.
One thing to consider though: the spanish type has that nice foot extension, which really helps keeping the thing well together. I think it is a very important pro. Not that you can't add a foot to a bolton block... Several luthiers here do it.
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Fri May 09, 2008 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spanish heel or bolt-on construction?
Hi Clint,
Great question. You'll get many opinions I'm sure....
Your question generates many questions in my mind...

What is your goal for this guitar?
Is it for you or someone else?
Does tradition matter?
If both necks work well in other settings, Do you think either will work for you?

My own thoughts were that if I built a classical, I'd use my dovetail, because it's what I'm set up to do.

One thing I know, everything matters, a little.

Good luck, welcome to the OLF!
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri May 09, 2008 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spanish heel or bolt-on construction?
You might be very interested in a pair of professional builds being documented at LuthierForum. Builder, Michael Lazar is building two classicals with different top bracing patterns, but both will have a Raised Fretboard and a Spanish Heel done in the Romanillos, double wedge style. It is a very interesting thread, currently in progress. He goes into some good detail on the heel construction and the method of accomplishing it. Here is a link Michael Lazar Classical Builds at Luthier Forum

Oh, I forgot, Welcome to OLF. It is a great learning place. Alex and I are both Classical builders too, early in our journeys to multiple builds.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Fri May 09, 2008 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spanish heel or bolt-on construction?
Off topic, but Michael Lazar is a great guy. I met him sort of by accident, and since then he has helped me a lot with my building.
Author:  Gary L [ Fri May 09, 2008 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spanish heel or bolt-on construction?
Clint,
I have used both methods for classical neck attachment but when I started building elevated fingerboards I went exclusively to a bolt-on neck. Here is a tutorial I wrote on the method. In the context of an elevated fingerboard, there is a definite advantage to a bolt-on system when fitting the neck extension to the body: the bolts hold the assembly so you can obtain the perfect neck angle and fit. I also use a carbon fiber rod for stability.

Soundwise, I do not detect any weaknesses. Last week I asked Jason Vieaux to play the guitar shown in the above tutorial. His first comment was that he was surprised by the guitar's unusually large sustain. His next comment was that the guitar reminded him of his Paul Fischer. The first comment out of another recognized professional player was also that the guitar possesses a lot of sustain.
Author:  ClintB [ Fri May 09, 2008 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spanish heel or bolt-on construction?
Thanks for the input, guys.

I've had a look at the Lazar thread going on and am finding it quite interesting. I'd actually come across his website about a week ago while I was researching things. I am considering adopting his method.

Gary, thanks for the link to your tutorial. Your guitars are really some of the nicest I've ever seen, and your tute is well done.

As for my own goals for this guitar, it's sort of a prototype in many ways - a lot of firsts for me, so I won't be selling it. It'll only be my 2nd. Last one was a classical using the spanish heel/extended foot method, and I found it fairly easy to do so I'm comfortable with it. I'm planning on getting into steel strings sometime down the road, so I'm not opposed to trying out different methods of construction now.

Thanks again for the input!

-Clint
Author:  Todd Rose [ Fri May 09, 2008 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spanish heel or bolt-on construction?
Go bolt-on - and adjustable! Gary Southwell is a great example of a classical builder who does this. Also an extremely nice guy. My own adjustable neck design (for steel strings, but I plan to use it on classicals, too, when I start building them) is largely inspired by his.
Author:  John Elshaw [ Wed May 14, 2008 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spanish heel or bolt-on construction?
There are many high-end classical builders who build using either method. I would say pick the one you're most comfortable with for now and most likely to use in the future so you get really good at it. Don't worry about sound differences, I've played awesome guitars with both methods.

Cheers!

John
Author:  douglas ingram [ Fri May 16, 2008 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spanish heel or bolt-on construction?
Just for the info, Southwell is using a Stauffer method, which also allows for quick adjustment. Not new, just seems that way.
Author:  ClintB [ Fri May 16, 2008 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spanish heel or bolt-on construction?
Thanks again for all the input. I've got some time to think about which route to go since I'm busy finishing my shop. I'm hoping to be building in the fall again (expecting a busy summer). I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go with an elevated fretboard, and I had assumed I'd have to go bolt-on (or some other 2 piece system), but Mr. Lazar's method looks interesting, doing the spanish style and the elevated fretboard together.

Todd - I like the idea of the adjustable fretboard, but I'm not sure it would ever be necessary on a classical. I can't imagine neck resets are that common on a well made classical, especially one with a couple CF reinforcement bars in it. It is a cool idea for the steel string though, with the bonus of freeing up the upper bout of the soundboard.

Thanks, all!
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon May 19, 2008 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spanish heel or bolt-on construction?
Interesting topic. Here is some consideration that I have found.

Most classical buyers want Spanish heel because they have been taught that the neck plays a much more important roll in the voice than is really true and have a preconceived notion that Spanish heel is the way to go.

Classical buyers are much like luxury yacht buyers, they are finicky and tradition is much more important to them than the average steel string buyer.

My personal experience, limited as it may be is that a bolt on M&T is just as good as a Spanish heel. That said if building for sell, right or wrong, you will find the majority of the classical market is looking for a traditional Spanish heel construction.

That was once true of steel string buyers in relationship to bolt on M&T vs glued up dovetail necks as well. It will just take time to move the markets opinion.
Author:  ClintB [ Wed May 21, 2008 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spanish heel or bolt-on construction?
That's interesting, Michael. I agree that phenomenal guitars can and are being made using a variety of styles.

I do believe a stiff neck and neck to body joint generally will make for increased sustain (I certainly can't prove it, though...) but I think any method will be fine as long as the fingerboard has some meat under it where it crosses over above the soundboard. I would like to start selling instruments in the future and I agree that many (maybe most) devout classical players love things to be traditional.

If anyone hasn't had a good look at Mr. Lazar's website, I'd recommend it. I think he's come up with a brilliant approach to getting the best of both worlds, combining the elevated fretboard with a Romanillos style spanish heel. A neck reset would be out of the question, still, but you can't have everything now, can you?

Thanks again.
Author:  jfrench [ Wed May 21, 2008 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spanish heel or bolt-on construction?
As far as the elevated fingerboard goes, I don't see anything wrong with a bolt on. But, as with you - I'd probably go with the integral method if possible.

On the broader subject of tradition (obviously not pertaining to elevated fingerboards), time is not likely to change it. A bolt on may be okay, but the best way to answer any question when venturing out like this is simple. Just ask yourself: How do the best makers in the world do it? Might as well start with what works best at the upper echelon of builders.

I don't think the customers are really that picky about this, but there does seem to be a perception that such things connote "cheapness" in the guitar and laziness in the builder. Something to consider if you build them for sale.
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