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solid rod necks?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=17231		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Jeff Highland [ Sat May 17, 2008 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  solid rod necks?
Anyone build ss necks with solid reinforcing rather than adjustable rods?
Please share your methods and results.
thanks
Jeff
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Sat May 17, 2008 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
Jeff,

These are the things I pay attention to when doing a non-adjustable neck:

I fret the fingerboard off the neck and make sure it is perfectly flat and fretted before gluing it to the neck

I have been using (2) 1/4 x 3/8 CF rods in the neck, running into the headstock and as far into the neck block as my system will allow (usually 2 or so inches).

I level the top surface of the neck and then preshape the neck to as close as possible to the final shape. Then I let it sit for a couple of days and check it periodically to see how level the top surface is staying after shaping. Ditto for the fingerboard.

If all is good I glue the fingerboard on with Smith all wood epoxy and then do the final smoothing.

That has worked well for me but I would love to hear what everyone else is doing also.
Author:  Guest [ Sat May 17, 2008 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
Given the quality & low cost of the double acting rods on the market, I don't understand why one would want to install a solid rod.
Over time, or with a change of string guage, or even a change of playing style, the owner will likely want to adjust his neck relief. Seems a shame to have to do a bunch of fretwork to accomplish what can be done with an allen wrench in a few minutes.
Maybe I'm missing something???

Daniel M
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Sat May 17, 2008 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
I agree it is a risk, and not for everyone. There is a sound you can get though with that ultra light neck that is tricky to duplicate with a rod, though not impossible. Al Carruth mentioned once about a very light neck creating a scenario where the neck resonance added to the bass reflex. (I apologize if those terms are wrong) I think of the sound I notice as more open and I like that. It is also nice to have the weight more balanced on the instrument. Especially if you are building very light on the box, it doesn't become neck heavy.
Author:  John How [ Sat May 17, 2008 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
I build my ladder braced guitars with no truss rod. I use 4 1/4x1/8 CF rods. I get a nice and light but very stiff neck and have not had problems so far. If someone insists on a rod I'll put one in but I love the lightness of the neck. I leave a 1/4" space down the center of the neck because I drill a couple of 1/4" holes there for alignment in a jig and there is a 1/8" space between the inner and outer rods on each side. Everything falls inside the fingerboard enough that there is no problem with shaping the neck. It is not for everyone but I like it. The rode are usually epoxied in but I have been experimenting with other glues such as the poly (I think) and have even tried super glue. Not sure how I will do it in the future. I like epoxy but it is kind of a pain.
Author:  David Collins [ Sat May 17, 2008 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
Okay, personal opinion here - no personal insults intended toward anyone here.

Now for my honest opinion. :?

Non-adjustable necks are a cocky, arrogant claim that you're decision of a setup is perfect for everyone. It's refusal to acknowledge that even players within the same genre who may play a particular style of instrument, all have the same right hand technique and attack. It represents an "If you have a problem with my definition of perfect, you just need to fix your playing style" kind of attitude to me.

Different players have different needs in setups, and even if you can make a neck so solid it will never move, it's still a senseless thing to give up. If I may paraphrase a quote from Richard Hoover of Santa Cruz, "Building a guitar with a non-adjustable truss rod is like building a car with a welded rearview mirror - just sit on a phone book if you need to change the angle".

Really, no offense intended. If you build guitars with solid rods, and people like them and buy them, that's fine with me. Different strokes...
Rant over.
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Sat May 17, 2008 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
David,

I was waiting for that! I remember this came up before, but I couldn't find the thread and you expressed the same opinion. No offense taken. I like them for my own guitars but have yet for someone else to go for it!
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sat May 17, 2008 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
If it matters, in the CG or flamenco world it still goes on without an adjustable rod. Some luthiers tried it with success, but for the most part it is still in the gimmicks phase. Myself as a player (as bad as i am) I *really* hate neck heavy guitars.
My first classical is built with cypress which is light. An I did not make it paper thin flamenco style, I left it a tad thicker than rosewood. Because I left the FB a bit on the thick side too from 6.5 tapering to 5mm the guitar was neck heavy to the point of feeling ready to fall every time I put it on my leg for playing. What I did was to shave 1mm off the entire back of the neck (although I probably prefer thick necks) and I also cut a fairly large sized chunk from the headstock and redid the crest as low as possible. I also needed to chnage to the shortest plate tuners on the market.
It feels a lot better now but at some point I might still want to pull the frets and shave 1mm off the entire FB.
Author:  David Collins [ Sat May 17, 2008 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
For classical and flamenco I can certainly understand going without an adjustable rod. Mostly from acceptance in the market, but also for a neck balance I can see why builders would choose lighter reinforcement. I feel the conventional single action rod doesn't add significant weight, but on finely built instruments you do have to split hairs.

I toyed with the idea of extreme lightweight adjustable "rods", buy using some type of lightweight ribbon or cable in place of the rod. Anchored at the peghead and secured to some sort of adjustment lug at the soundhole end, I believe it could be engineered to add near zero mass to the neck. Part of the challenge may be finding a material with high tensile strength and minimal elasticity (I think things like braided Kevlar may have too much give), but it may not be a challenge at all. I never spent much time with the idea though, because I personally subscribe to the Schneider/Kasha philosophy of added mass/inertia toward the headstock being of tonal benefit (within reasonable limitations of balance) on the steel string guitar.
Author:  pharmboycu [ Sat May 17, 2008 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
From a player's point of view, here are my thoughts. If you have a GREAT piece of wood for the neck, and I mean *GREAT*, then I think a non-adjustable T rod is tied for first place. To me, they just "feel" more solid. I know, I know-- this is subjective and debatable. It just "feels" like it's solid and I don't sense a "mushiness" in the middle of the neck that I sometimes feel on guitars with only an adjustable rod (and no carbon fiber reinforcement). I never liked the square tube bars simply because I can almost feel a hollow-ness there and a willingness to "twist" instead of bend. Crazy, crazy, crazy, I know. I also like the simplicity of it-- when something is a hair off it's easy to accidentally make a mistake by adjusting the neck. With a non-adjustable neck it eliminates the ability for someone who likes to think he knows what he's doing to "ruin the painting with one more brushstroke" so to speak by attempting to adjust the neck... not that I've ever done that. [headinwall] (I've learned to just leave well enough alone.)

With a thin neck, I think that an adjustable rod with two carbon fiber rods running parallel to the truss rod is the way to go. I think there is a lateral stability and resistance to twist with the t bar that is improved upon even further with the carbon fiber supports and the adjustable rod sweetens the deal. That said, the GREAT pieces of wood that are extra stiff and could almost get by without a truss rod are so hard to come by now (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) that wood which 50 years ago would have been a "second" and not used is not useable and sometimes graded higher than it was 50 years ago just based on quality within availability. I really think that everything depends on the stiffness of the neck "in vitro" so to speak and the overall thickness of the neck. Then again, I have a friend whose guitar's neck (with the old T bar inside) is so thin that sometimes you have to heat it and bend it one way in the summer and heat it and bend it the other way in the winter-- the T bar and thicker fretboard keep it together.

Overall though, the guitars Lance has built for me have a double acting truss rod and carbon fiber reinforcement which is tied for my favorite at equivalent of 99.99999999% and the t bar is my other favorite at 99.999999999%. I've often wanted to try a guitar with the old bar frets and ebony reinforcing rod though... now THAT really peaks my interest... anyone ever played one? Are they more "musical" sounding (yes, I'm a believer that *everything* affects the sound of an instrument, even neck reinforcement)?
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Sun May 18, 2008 3:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
Stupid question, I'm sure, but why couldn't I put a treads on the ends of a couple of carbon fiber rods and make a super-light weight dual-action truss rod from them? Would the threads hold? Would the rods bend enough?

Dave F.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun May 18, 2008 5:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
Not at all a stupid question Dave buddy and I hope someone does this soon and offers it commercially.

At the very least the threaded ends could still be metal but the solid back piece and the rod on a double action could be CF with the ends bonded to them. I suspect that the vast majority of a typical Allied or LMI 2XRod's 192 grams is the back and rod itself.
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Sun May 18, 2008 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
I have always wondered about titanium also. I spoke to some friends who work with it for their bicycles and they seemed to think it might work, but I have no metal working skills. It is on my list of things to try but maybe someone else has already tried it? A lighter weight truss rod is something I think about a lot. Jeff, sorry that we have veered off a bit from your original question. Are you looking for more information?
Author:  Colin S [ Sun May 18, 2008 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
None of the Golden era Martin's had truss rods, I've got three from the 30s two with ebony and one with T bar, plus my '63 also just has a T-bar, they play fine. But I suspect Martin were just cocky and arrogant when they made them.

Colin
Author:  David Collins [ Sun May 18, 2008 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
Colin S wrote:
None of the Golden era Martin's had truss rods, I've got three from the 30s two with ebony and one with T bar, plus my '63 also just has a T-bar, they play fine. But I suspect Martin were just cocky and arrogant when they made them.

Colin


Hey, it's fine with me. I love being able to charge $360-$400 for a compression refret when the customer wants their neck a bit straighter - judging by how often I do this, I think it's safe to say they don't all hold up so perfectly. I'd love to see all guitars should go back to ebony or T-bars - those $10 truss rod adjustments just don't pay the rent! [:Y:]


I know I sound harsh, but my point is this. I do work for flat pickers who play hard in the first position and do best with .010"-.015" relief, then others who play more like a Tony Rice style with the neck near dead straight. A jazz player moving smooth and fast can want a very straight neck, while one chopping out rhythm on 40's standards can need a lot of relief. Whether it me a D-28 or an L-5, I find it inconvenient and unfortunate to not be able to adjust to fit a player's style when the technology is so simple. I'm also rather confident that the end stiffness and mass of the an adjustable neck can be made comparable to a T-bar if you really wanted to try and match it.

To each their own though.
Author:  Jim Watts [ Sun May 18, 2008 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
I often dual 1/4 x 3/8 rods on either side of the truss rod. You don't get much adjustment you can get a little. I put the 2-way truss rod in for adjustment needs down the road if required.
The strings will still pull a little relief with this set up also.
Author:  Brett L Faust [ Sun May 18, 2008 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
Any one ever see a Parker Fly truss rod ?
They were 1/8" ss slightly offset to the bass side I believe.
Very light.
On the subject of titanium truss rods . I believe TKS is a supplier.They also make ti saddles for strats ,tele,T.O.M. bridges bass as well. I think it's TKS, but not 100% sure.
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Mon May 19, 2008 1:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
I found it!

http://www.k-t-s.com/contents/bridge/indextr.html

Brett, thanks!
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Mon May 19, 2008 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
David King (Bass builder) has posted about how he makes his titanium truss rods and the difficulties involved over on the MIMF. Probably not archived, but if you're really interested you could shoot him an e-mail...
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon May 19, 2008 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
Very little was said but a bit implied that classical/flamenco string tension is far less than steel string. Hence the added weight of an adjustable truss rod has proven to be a bigger drawback than advantage on classical and flamenco guitars for the most part.

Early guitars were often built with Ebony rails or t-bar shaped metal rods. But those necks tended to be beefier than today’s modern neck profiles.

With today’s emphases on building lighter bodies and thinner neck profiles the truss rod is a critical feature in my humble opinion on steel string guitars designed to tune are EADGBE tuning. Lesser tuning tension may not be as hard on many neck profiles. But sooner or later the typical steel string will need a neck reset unless exceptionally cared for. The constant pull of the strings will pull the neck out of shape sooner or later. Yes it may take 20-50-100 years but sooner or later string tension wins the war. A two way adjustable truss rod is sure to help the neck prolong the fight. I am sure carbon fiber rods do also but lack the adjustability. On the other hand adjustable truss rods can rattle if not properly seated so each concept has it own attribute. I like the idea of combining the two and plan to do so soon in my necks.
Author:  Brett L Faust [ Mon May 19, 2008 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
How about a titanium truss rod with a carbon fiber fulcrum as your filler strip?
Anyone out there ever try a CF filler strip?
Author:  Greg [ Tue May 20, 2008 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
Always a hot debate when the heresy of no truss rod comes up. I have built three OM's with triple 1/8 X 3/8 CF "pre-stressed" rods. I put the CF on a concave stress - raised 1/16" at heel and nut and flush in middle. Then epoxy. Sand flat and apply fret board. My current build is dred with same configuration but with adjustable/heeless neck somewhat "a la Fender" with through the fretboard at 15th and 17th fret space. (see Chris Jenkens: Lame horse website). Stringing up is a ways off yet.

My take on the truss rod is for compensation of the stress applied by years of string tension. Action adjustment to me seems secondary benefit of the truss rod.

Now that many are building adjustable neck joints, there may be a place for carbon fiber only reinforced necks. CF is technology that was not available when truss rods were introduced. I applaud all innovative ideas. Some will work, some will not. Some will be ridiculous. Most will have me saying, "why didn't I think of that."
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Wed May 21, 2008 12:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
Brett L Faust wrote:
How about a titanium truss rod with a carbon fiber fulcrum as your filler strip?
Anyone out there ever try a CF filler strip?


A company here (Vox Humana) in the Netherlands has a patented T-shaped CF bar with an adjustable rod embedded in the middle. Unfortunately, they won't sell the rod seperately, only do the install themselves for about 70 dollars, but it's a really, really impressive system - their demo neck (no headstock) is clamped in a vice, won't budge even if you hang your whole weight on it, and yet give it a turn with an allen key and the neck turns into a nice, even, fair curve with minimal adjustment.

Really impressive.
Author:  David Collins [ Wed May 21, 2008 1:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
Mattia, please tell me more.....

It sounds too good to be true, but I'm very interested and all ears. I did a bit of searching online and could find the company, but no info about their truss rod system. Sounds like the ideal system to me.

If there's any other info you have available I'd love to see it. I tried doing a quick search on USPTO and WIPO, but didn't bring anything up. If you had a patent number (or at least what governments you think it's patented through) that would be great.
Author:  SniderMike [ Wed May 21, 2008 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: solid rod necks?
David, try this:

http://www.voxhumana.nl/cms/index.php?o ... &Itemid=60

Maybe Mattia can translate
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