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| Author: | martinedwards [ Tue May 20, 2008 8:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | hardwood top question |
Hi gang, I have a guy asking me about making him a flat-top mando with a cherry top. Now I KNOW that tops should be softwood. but then I know that Ukes often have Koa top back & sides and there are all those all hog martin dreads........ so...... I assume that I'll have to sand it thinner than a spruce top, but other than that, what should I look out for/ beware of/expect? and yes the thought that he's thinking of a cherry burst has crossed my mind....... 
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| Author: | Andy Matthews [ Tue May 20, 2008 8:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
It's all about stiffness/mass ratio with tops. You want a stiff wood that's good and light. Reducing the thickness of most woods to a point where they're light enough to be driven by the strings results in them being too flimsy to cope with string tension. Though I've not worked much with cherry, I would presume that this is the problem you'd run in to, as it's the reason we don't use just any wood for our tops. I'm sure someone with more hands-on will be along shortly to advise. |
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| Author: | Sam Price [ Tue May 20, 2008 10:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
Martin, I mean this in a nice way, why not try it and see? It's a lovely wood to be sure, and with your build speed, it won't be too drastic if it sounds bad. I would think they'd be an emphasis on trebles, though, with a slight reduction of volume and projection, being a stiffer wood than the common softwoods used. There are a few maple top mandolins out there... |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue May 20, 2008 10:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
I have built many Koa topped OMs and SJs and a few Maple topped. Most of my Koa tops were thicknessed pre-bracing to .100-.105 braced and tuned. most thinned on the perimeter of the lower bout after bracing to .090-.095 |
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| Author: | martinedwards [ Tue May 20, 2008 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
LOL it's funny, you guys say "why not?" over on mando cafe they're much more (but not totally) against it!! |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Tue May 20, 2008 6:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
I'm all for it, mainly to get a report back on how it worked - at someone's expense other than my own! ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") I've always loved mahogany flat tops, though their rarity in use for arched tops has kept me from developing a strong opinion there. I've been wanting to try cherry at some point for a flat top, but I'd love to hear your experience if you go first. |
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| Author: | James W B [ Tue May 20, 2008 6:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
Michael,I was wondering what a Top Thickness for Koa would be on a Uke? Also as David has said,a hog top really appeals to me.I`d definately like to try that someday. James |
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| Author: | Ricardo [ Wed May 21, 2008 10:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
James, on a uke I'd shoot for .065 to .070 on top. My all koa ukes don't seem as loud as the spruce top ones. |
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| Author: | Sam Price [ Thu May 22, 2008 7:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
martinedwards wrote: LOL it's funny, you guys say "why not?" over on mando cafe they're much more (but not totally) against it!! Only say no to stuff if it kills ya. Cherry isn't commonly used in guitar/mando building, so anyone building with the stuff can report thier experiences for the benefit of humankind and the OLF archives.  I would go for it if I could build a little faster..eight-ten months is a long time to waste if it didn't work..... |
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| Author: | Andy Matthews [ Thu May 22, 2008 8:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
Ricardo wrote: James, on a uke I'd shoot for .065 to .070 on top. My all koa ukes don't seem as loud as the spruce top ones. When you thickness to those dimensions to the tops feel as flexible as your normal spruce ones? Do you have any information on comparison weights? My thoughts are the loss in volume will be due to a higher mass soundboard. |
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| Author: | stan thomison [ Thu May 22, 2008 11:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
I am with others and say go for it. It may and probably will turn out very well. I am sure same questions arose when folks first did the mahogany tops and I personally like that look very much and have one in the planning stages as well as an all koa. The material means a lot, but the build will probably mean if it works or not. |
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| Author: | Ricardo [ Sat May 24, 2008 12:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
Thats a good point Jammy. I have never tried reducing a hardwood top to the same mass as a spruce top. What would it take? A .050 koa top to be equivalent to a .070 spruce top? I'm reluctant to go that thin with anything. I suppose one could lighten up on the bracing for the hardwood top. I'll try that next time to see if I can get more top movement with a hardwood top. Steve Grimes, a well known guitar builder prefers to put spruce tops on his guitars because they sound better. I expect his 30+ years have taught him that you can't achieve the same sound with a hardwood top as you can with spruce. |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Sat May 24, 2008 1:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
Quote: I expect his 30+ years have taught him that you can't achieve the same sound with a hardwood top as you can with spruce I wonder if he's ever played an old mahogany top J-45.  Music stores and collectors started hiding the old mahogany top Gibson Jumbos away in recent years. It turns out that too many people once they had heard them would go home and just burn their old D-18's and D-28's in the fire pit. It was just devastating the vintage preservation efforts, so collectors agreed that such power is best not made freely available to the public. It's true. You have to undergo psychological evaluation before, and a thorough debriefing after you're allowed to play one of these things. Just way too much power for some to handle. |
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| Author: | stan thomison [ Sat May 24, 2008 9:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
Have 2 older 00015's. They are great sounding little guitars, for the cheapest ones Martin made until their laminated lines. |
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| Author: | martinedwards [ Sat May 24, 2008 1:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
current status is he's thinking about it. I DO have a pile of cherry though........ Maybe I will, just to see....... maybe a bolt on neck so I can salvage it more easily if it turms out awful!! 
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| Author: | AndrewGribble [ Sat May 24, 2008 1:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
Has anyone ever tried/heard the Santa Cruz H13s that are all sycamore (t,b,s,n)? From a visual standpoint this has to be about the loudest 'looking' guitar I've ever seen. I just wonder how the sycamore tops sound. |
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| Author: | Sam Price [ Sat May 24, 2008 5:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
Sycamore? Interesting. |
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| Author: | Billy T [ Sun May 25, 2008 4:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
David Collins wrote: Music stores and collectors started hiding the old mahogany top Gibson Jumbos away in recent years. It turns out that too many people once they had heard them would go home and just burn their old D-18's and D-28's in the fire pit. I don't know if I should believe that or not!  I've always loved oak! I've entertained the thought of oak tops for sometime. I'm suspicious that many of the naysayers are just more concerned with the unknown factors of using a wood not common to tops. Or sides for that matter. I don't think Ive ever even seen quartersawn oak though. |
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| Author: | Billy T [ Sun May 25, 2008 4:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
I take that back! The Zootman has some! |
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| Author: | Mark Swanson [ Sun May 25, 2008 10:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: hardwood top question |
I have built with a lot of cherry, I love it. I have so far avoided the temptation to make a cherry topped guitar but I've thought much about it and have a piece set aside. Bruce Crepps told me that in selecting a piece of koa for a top, you need to pay very close attention to all the usual grain factors. Runout in a top like this is very important because it is going to be thinner than usual so get a piece with as little of it as you can. I have played the mahogany topped guitars talked about and they sure can do a great job, and I bet that a cherry guitar done right would, too. JJ, I have a few oak parlor guitars- they have spruce tops, but back then oak was used all the time. |
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