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Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
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Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri May 23, 2008 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
OK, I have started my #2 Classical Build. It will be the same basic design as #1, but will be built from EIR and German Spruce, and will have a HOG V-Joint Neck - Maybe [headinwall] .

If you are interested, you can stay with me, but it's lots of pictures, and some explanations. I am learning and having fun at the same time. I'm also learning the secrets of some of my tools. bliss

Using the J. French method, I layed out my V-Joint (first of several :roll: ) So here we go.

First, I leveled out a neck blank that was a little too thin, anyway, but thought, this is a first, so I'll use a little less angle on the head. I could get a good 11* with this thickness, which was a fat 1" (26mm).
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P1000804 (Large).JPG
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Next, I leveled up a head piece just over 3"wide, thicknessed eventually to a fat 16mm, to allow for a Head plate, and back plate to end up at about 20 - 21mm.
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P1000810 (Large).JPG

Measured carefully, and clamped the ruler down to scribe the lines, deeply with an scribing knife (homemade from a heavy duty hacksaw blade).
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P1000812 (Large).JPG

OK, so I scribed through the V gaah , it won't matter, it'll be snaded, and end up under the nut.
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P1000815 (Large).JPG

Cutting bevels carefully to the lines only in the waste areas. This will create good guides for sawing.
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Much more to come in next post.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri May 23, 2008 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Moving right along.

Still beveling to the lines.
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P1000821 (Large).JPG

Now, sawing close to the lines, but not to them all the way, but they are easy to see, because of the bevels.
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P1000822 (Large).JPG
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P1000823 (Large).JPG

So, you end up with joints that need trimming with a chisel, to clean them up, but the lines are still visible, except where I got to close [headinwall] .
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P1000824 (Large).JPG

Here is the head piece cut out with the female V cut. Yeah, I marked it wrong, but it'll be covered up by the head plate. Wjhat's it to ya? pfft
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Gluing up.
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Not terrible for a first, right?
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Next, I glued up the heel block pieces.
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P1000859 (Large).JPG

We still have a long way to go - hang on if you aren't too bored! Eat Drink
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri May 23, 2008 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Hey, this is easy! :D We're screaming along.
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P1000866 (Large).JPG

Roughed in the inside cut for the Spanish foot.
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P1000869 (Large).JPG

There has to be a way to cut the slots on a table saw. Lets try a method. I made a sled with a 7* slant on it, which is the slope of the V inside the slots. The slots are cut at 4*, so the sled will slide using the Miter slide on the table saw. Great idea. Here's the first cut. Just needs to be a smidgen wider.
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P1000870 (Large).JPG

First side went great. Second side, was not perfectly square, and I tried to fix it, but failed miserably! oops_sign So much for this neck. Maybe I'll save it for a short scale guitar.
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P1000871 (Large).JPG
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P1000872 (Large).JPG


Starting Over now with a new neck blank. This one is actually better, and is a full 1 1/8" thick to allow for a 14* angle on the head. To help, I thought, I made a template to use for marking.
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P1000874 (Large).JPG

Marks look fairly good.
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P1000875 (Large).JPG

Did my bevel cutting per the plan.
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P1000876 (Large).JPG


Still more coming - grab a snack pizza !
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Fri May 23, 2008 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
:D aaah mhhm are you *sure* that thing is going to hold when you actually put strings on it? :D
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri May 23, 2008 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Here's a couple of shots showing all the bevels cut.
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It was about here, that I was looking at the V and thinking it didn't look right. I re-measured, and realized I had made my Template with the wrong measurements. It would have been OK, as it was only 2mm too long, but it also wasn't quite square, so I cut off the marked head piece and re-marked with measured and scribed on a ruler again. I think the template was slipping when I marked, or bending at the tip. Live and learn! duh
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Cutting the bevels.
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Then cut with a saw, not to the line, this time.
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Still more to come.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri May 23, 2008 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Are we totally bored out of our skulls yet? beehive idunno

Carefully using a chisel, I shaved off the excess, working with the grain, and shaving to the lines, keeping the chisel as level as possible, sort of using it like a plane. If I had thought about it, I would have turned the neck the other way, then chiseling would have been easier. It is something to think about when doing this. Define the direction of the grain before deciding which end you are going to saw down and chisel on. I had to chisel at a bevel from the shoulder up to the point of the bevel. It would have been easier if I could have worked down to the shoulder, instead. More learning! [:Y:]
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OK, I'm real close on the V now, still have the shoulders to go.
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The chip outs here won't matter, as they will be eventually cut off.
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P1000891 (Large).JPG

Oh No! This will not do. wow7-eyes Start over on this part of the V.
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P1000892 (Large).JPG

I remeasured, and re-marked, and re-cut, and re-beveled, and finally got a fit. You can see the lines where I started over. Good thing I had a long blank.
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P1000904 (Large).JPG

Here you can see the head and the V ready to be glued.
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P1000905 (Large).JPG

One more to go, almost done.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri May 23, 2008 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Checking the fit.
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P1000908 (Large).JPG
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Gluing up.
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All glued.
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P1000915 (Large).JPG

The V planed down to the head, with the joint under the nut area. Not perfect, but passable, I think.
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P1000918 (Large).JPG

The head piece was a little thick anyway, and I was a little too close on the back side. I found a good use for the littel bull nosed plane from Lee Valley. It gets right in there to clean up behind chiseling the back of the head down.
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P1000919 (Large).JPG

Finally, here, gluing the heel blocks on.
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P1000922 (Large).JPG


That's all for now. Go rest. After this coming weekend, I hope to have the neck slotted and me ready to move on to other things. I also have a scarf neck going for #3 at the same time I'm doing this one. Thanks for looking at the trials and tribulations of the beginner's V-Neck.
Author:  Marc [ Fri May 23, 2008 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Waddy,

Great pics, looks good, nice fit. I'm learning the v-neck joint as well. We're at the same spot in our build, I'll post my v-neck attempt, you can have a look.
Author:  jhowell [ Fri May 23, 2008 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Waddy--

Thanks for posting the pics on the V-neck. [clap] [clap] This is a very nice toot on cutting the joint and I think a very nice way to get a mahogany neck out of thinner pieces of wood. I'm going to try this on my next steel string. Got some poplar from the Borg to practice on.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri May 23, 2008 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Probably a good idea. I just figured that practicing on HOG would get me familiar with how that wood works, and the idiosyncrasies of that particular wood. I had bought a whole bolt of neck blank rejects from Hibdon last year, and it has some good stuff in it, so I have a lot of practice wood. I have to work around some worm holes and knots, and some is not perfectly quartered, but I have found much that is, perfect after cutting to the needed lengths.
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Fri May 23, 2008 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Good job, Waddy! I have never made one of those joints, but I've been meaning to. It's good to learn what to look out for, I'm sure I can invent some new ways to mess up the process though.

I don't know exactly what went wrong with the table saw heel block slot cutting jig thingy; how are you going to cut those slots this time?
Author:  Marc [ Fri May 23, 2008 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Waddy, are you making your jig to do the Romanillos style wedge heel slots? I have a table saw jig for conventional heel slots but I'm trying to de-jig as much as possible. I was thinking of switching to the Romanillos style slots because they look more forgiving to cut with a hand saw. Am I wrong? Are the Romanillos style slots difficult to cut freehand?
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri May 23, 2008 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
I did them freehand on my first one, but thought it would be nice to be able to do it neatly and quickly on a table saw, instead of having to hog out all that material with a chisel. The problem I had doing it by hand was 1) getting a perfectly straight saw line (Dave LaPlante's Jig would solve the problem for hand cutting - see - [img=http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=16461&hilit=neck]Working Up a Classical Neck[/img] post), 2) having a perfectly flat V in the center for the wedges to but up against for a good glue joint on the inside. (don't know how important that is) and 3) having the two cuts perfectly parallel, so the wedges can be easily fit to the slot.

Here is a thought I just had while typing my response to you. Maybe it would help to use the same approach used for the V-joint, i.e., cut bevels into a scored line before doing the saw cut. That would give you a much better guide for hand cutting. Hmmmm! I may try that. Then you could chisel to the line just like with the V. What do you think?
Author:  Marc [ Fri May 23, 2008 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Sounds like a good plan. I'm definitly going to explore the idea on some practice blocks of wood. I've never done the Romanillos style heel so I at least want to give it a try. I think I remember LaPlantes jig, I'll give it another look, but what I really want to accomplish is cutting freehand heel slots with just marking tools, handsaws, and chisels while maintaining clean straight lines.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri May 23, 2008 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Marc, if you cut your slope on the inside heel first, you can then put a depth stop on the saw to control the depth of the slot. The angle would be the same as the heel angle inside the guitar.
Author:  Steve Brown [ Fri May 23, 2008 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Really enjoyed your post. I have only made one neck and that one with a long scarf joint. I want to try the V joint an will use your pictures to go by.

Steve
Author:  Marc [ Fri May 23, 2008 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Thanks for the tip Waddy.
Author:  Sam W [ Fri May 23, 2008 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Waddy

I always enjoy looking at the pictures you submit. You always think through your process very carefully.

2 questions:

What is the reasoning for the V joint?


Very basic question - what is HOG wood?
Author:  Dennis Leahy [ Fri May 23, 2008 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Oh, Waddy, that looks difficult!

They do look elegant, but what a lot of work to get there. WTG!

Dennis
Author:  David LaPlante [ Fri May 23, 2008 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Of course the rather hairy part here is that the actual portion of the joint that will show in the finished instrument is well within the joint and not visible in the preliminary state.
One has to check the fit in these areas closely to get a nice clean look once the neck and peghead transition are shaped.
What's even more nerve wracking is that usually one doesn't carve the neck until the guitar is completely assembled and with a classical guitar the neck is not removable if it turns out to be a disappointment.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri May 23, 2008 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Gee, thanks, David, you're making me feel real secure! :o beehive

Maybe I'll do some preliminary shaping to see what it looks like inside.. It is a good point though. I actually think my joint may be better on the inside than on the outside, but I sure don't know. I know it's not perfect, though, and that does give me some pause.

Sam, the reason for the V-Joint is really to punish myself for my many shortcomings. I do this instead of whipping myself. I'm not big on the pain thing. Nah, the real reason is because it's a beautiful joint, and because it is a repairable joint that can be fixed if someone knocks a guitar over and it hits on the head, it will pop loose at the joint, and can often be re-glued without too many issues.

HOG is slang for Honduran Mahogany.

Dennis, it is a lot of work, but why not learn when I'm learning. I did my first the easy way.

Steve - Only use the parts where it worked! Leave out the mistakes! :D Joshua's tutorial and David's post also are a big help.

Thanks for looking everyone.
Author:  David LaPlante [ Fri May 23, 2008 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
Don't sweat it Waddy, it looks good in the pics and if your sense of the fit was good as you did it you are probably right that it will look even cleaner once shaped.
In any event it will be worth the effort!


Best!
Author:  Ennis Guitars Sr [ Fri May 23, 2008 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
I said it once and I'll say it again, "You Da Man"
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri May 23, 2008 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
I suppose we'll find out, huh? Thanks for your confidence David. Easy for you to say! :D

Red, where you been? I didn't know you could be quiet for so long. What are you working on these days? I assume Ennis Guitars Sr is you, isn't it? idunno
Author:  CWLiu [ Sun May 25, 2008 2:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Waddys 2nd Classical or the Trials of the V-Neck Joint (Pic
WaddyT wrote:
Second side, was not perfectly square, and I tried to fix it, but failed miserably! oops_sign So much for this neck. Maybe I'll save it for a short scale guitar


The vee joint on this neck looks seamless! [clap] Perhaps you can convert it to a dovetail or a bolt-on adjustable(or not) neck. I've done only two vees so far. They still hold, despite the more visable seams without any clamping. :oops:
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