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http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=17352		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Frank Aarre [ Mon May 26, 2008 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  plans
What's up with the plans? It's been more than 7 weeks since i ordered the om plans, haven't really gotten any feedback as to what is going on so i thought i'd try the open forum since none of my pm's or e-mails seem to be generating any kind of response.
I've heard that there has been a printing problem, but i just checked the plans page on this site and the om plans aren't marked as out of stock.
I went through my paypal invoice today and saw that i had payed just the 27.99, since i live in norway that would not include shipping. I'm more than happy to pay for the shipping, though.

I've got my mind pretty much set on these plans, so if there are any members here who's got a set of plans for sale pm me.

(don't mean to beehive , but am just anxious to get started on my build)
Author:  Mark Maquillan [ Mon May 26, 2008 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
Which plan is it?
Author:  Guest [ Mon May 26, 2008 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
I feel for ya d00d....I also ordered plans a while back and have also been totally ignored...woops, that's not entirely true as Lance actually did respond...with a response pawning the problem off to Brock....NO other replies, period....too bad I used a direct link to my account via PayPal, and also waited too long, otherwise I would have rescinded the transaction....

hmmm....I wonder if interstate commerce laws apply here...in your case international....if I remember correctly it becomes a federal offense when its an out of state transaction...
Author:  PaulB [ Mon May 26, 2008 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
These guys are good, and the plans are worth the wait. Don't fret.
Author:  James W B [ Mon May 26, 2008 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
I also have waited for longer than should be for a set of SJ Jumbo plans.I talked to Brock on the phone ,and he said there was a problem with printing.It seems to me if your gonna take peoples money you should be able to deliver.Also it took me a very long time to receive something I had bought from Brock at one of our swap meets.There were plenty of excuses then also.Sorry Brock just telling it like it is.I know you bust your butt for the forum, as you`ve reminded us several times.Excuse me if I don`t get my violin out,but I just don`t treat people like this.If you can`t get it done ,we need to find someone who can.
James
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Mon May 26, 2008 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
QYW!!! pfft

They don't do this for the money.....it's all volunteer work.....you should be glad they do it at all!

So, it takes a while for things to come together and get the plans printed and shipped out.....so what?!

I got some plans (neck jig) just the other day. I'd ordered them quite a while back. I waited patiently, and they came. [:Y:]

Your time will come. Have some patience!

Dave F.
Author:  still protesting [ Mon May 26, 2008 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
excuses are like a$$holes...everyone has one...

if you read this thread you will see that we have NOT received any such words from the people in charge....I challenge anyone to say that is not totally lame....I think most of us are fairly reasonable people and would accept the 'excuse' that there are printer problems....but considering we have received no such official 'excuse' what the ***edited for use of profane language on a 'family' forum*** do you expect us to think???

why not use another printing source?...like one that does blueprints (which have to be to scale for the tradesman to use properly)....
Author:  Brock Poling [ Mon May 26, 2008 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
Every set of plans is on the street.

I am sorry this is such a constant problem. It is really my fault.

Every time I print them it is like starting over with the printer. They are right about 1 in 3 times when we print them. For whatever reason there seems to be some problem where they don't print accuratly. The aspect ratio gets off and the measurements are incorrect.

I am working with a blueprint printer, so you would think they would be able to handle this, but it is a struggle and I have to try and track down the people I worked with on the last order... and as you might imagine... there is a fairly high turn over in that business.

We have a good permenant solution brewing.

I will try to communicate more effectively. My apologies.
Author:  James W B [ Mon May 26, 2008 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
I understand it`s volunteer work Dave.I`ve done my share and I`m sure everyone else has.It still should be done in a timely manner.It sounds like a cop out to say ."Well I`m volunteering so they can just wait until I get around to it." What a great attitude that is.The problem is the volunteers are taking people`s money.I don`t take money when I volunteer.This doesn`t shed a bright light on the forum,especially for new members.
James
Author:  LanceK [ Mon May 26, 2008 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
"hmmm....I wonder if interstate commerce laws apply here...in your case international....if I remember correctly it becomes a federal offense when its an out of state transaction..."

"Guest, who are you? If you are going to accuse us of a federal offence, please identify your self.

Nothing subversive is going on here.

Mr "still protesting"
We ARE using a blueprint shop. Nice suggestion, but they have proven to be just as inconstant.
Any more ideas?

Any one that has not gotten there plans as of Friday of this week email me and I will refund your money.
I am going to cease selling them until a better solution is found for the printing and distributing.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Mon May 26, 2008 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
Aaarrgghhh!! Don't stop selling them Lance - I was just about to order some more!!! I don't mind waiting. Eat Drink

See what you whiners have done?! idunno

Dave F.
Author:  LanceK [ Mon May 26, 2008 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
Sorry Dave,
We need a better solution. Personal attacks and legal threats are way over board and
I feel that until we can better serve everyone here, pulling them is only short term solution.

We just need a better way.
Author:  LanceK [ Mon May 26, 2008 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
still protesting wrote:
excuses are like a$$holes...everyone has one...

if you read this thread you will see that we have NOT received any such words from the people in charge....I challenge anyone to say that is not totally lame....I think most of us are fairly reasonable people and would accept the 'excuse' that there are printer problems....but considering we have received no such official 'excuse' what the ***edited for use of profane language on a 'family' forum*** do you expect us to think???

why not use another printing source?...like one that does blueprints (which have to be to scale for the tradesman to use properly)....


Mike, send me your Paypal address and I will refund you immediately.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue May 27, 2008 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
I have to say it has for too long, taken far too much time to get these delivered. A few rude comments I guess are to be expected but none the less are bad taste. I have done all in my power to help those that were in dire need with the plans. At least the ones I knew of.

I have suggest to Brock that the plans be offered at a reduced rate in PDF format to those that wish to have them printed themselves. This would save printing and mailing charges. The problem with that is the potential of free electronic sharing that the forum would have no control of. I suspect this is the reason Brock and or Lance has resisted this option.

For those that are a bit hostel out there. Each set of plans I have donated have 12-18 hours of drafting work not to count many many hours of model development that went into the MJ and SJ, and your getting all that design work, knowledge and drafting service basically for one hundredth of a penny per hour put into the plans. Hell's-bells!!! if you paid only for the drafting service at commercial going rate you would be forking out some where between $400-$700. And that does not take in to consideration any design knowledge at all. I bet you never looked at from that point of view.

I know!!! and agree if you fork out the money you expect to get product in a reasonable amount of time.
Author:  Dave Higham [ Tue May 27, 2008 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
Well said Michael. As a retired draughtsman I appreciate the work that goes into plans. I draw my own on Cad for instruments of my own design (I'm making an ABG at the moment). After that I may have a go at a 000 working from a plan I've already bought.
Author:  ChuckH [ Tue May 27, 2008 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
Lance,
Take your time with my order of the OM plans. I don't care if it takes six monts, I would indeed like the plans I get to be accurate.
Boy, you just can't please everyone. I think you and Brock are doing an EXCELLENT job!
THANK YOU for keeping this site up and running. I love you guys, don't let them knock you off your square. Keep up the good work you are doing.

With all my love, [:Y:]
Hutch
Author:  douglas ingram [ Tue May 27, 2008 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
I offer canoe building plans, and have had had to address some of these issues, too.

Don't know if you've tried this. Have you checked with you printer about photocopying the plans? These places (the ones that cater to architectural and design firms) often have great big photocopiers that can take blueprint/blackprint size paper. Once you get the first one to come out right, the many copies that you make after that should all be the same, if all done with the same setup.

Are you printing from a digital file or from a hard (paper) copy?

Just trying to help.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue May 27, 2008 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
douglas ingram wrote:
I offer canoe building plans, and have had had to address some of these issues, too.

Don't know if you've tried this. Have you checked with you printer about photocopying the plans? These places (the ones that cater to architectural and design firms) often have great big photocopiers that can take blueprint/blackprint size paper. Once you get the first one to come out right, the many copies that you make after that should all be the same, if all done with the same setup.

Are you printing from a digital file or from a hard (paper) copy?

Just trying to help.


I suspect that the issue that Brock is running into has to do with the printer trying to use their preset fit image to media scaling in combination to not really being well versed in using DWF format files.

If they would just use 36” x 48” image area (for guitar my guitar plans) with no forced offset boundaries or offset boundaries set at zero, center image and print at 1:1 scale using any the free software provided by Autodesk that will work with pretty much any large format printing system, as long as they have maintained the machines aspect ratio settings. This process should be pretty much goof proof.

The trick is convincing some print shops to download the DWF view/print software. Here in a highly manufacturing engineering driven market area most all the print shops are acquainted with DWF format and have no issue. But many print shops in other areas really have gotten away without dealing with true scale and just frankly are scared to attempt or have poorly trained technicians ( I use that tem loosely) this ain’t brain surgery

I use DWF in stead of PDF because I have better line width, image resolution and print scaling with DWF and some added security benefits as well.


36 tall x 48” wide image area and print at full or 1:1 scale using Autodesk's FREE DWF Viewer Software It really is pretty simple

We have 5 differnt printers including Kinko's here that do this for engineering firms around here every day, day in and day out without issue, and we are just a little 200,000 population center between Midland and Odessa combined
Author:  Brock Poling [ Tue May 27, 2008 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
MichaelP wrote:
The trick is convincing some print shops to download the DWF view/print software.


This is exactly what I am running into. They have a "conversion program" that takes the file and "formats" it for their printer --- I am all but 100% sure this is where the problem lies.

They all tell me that they "can't" install "special" software to print these files.

I have pretty much called all over town and most places tell me a similar story, or they want to print big runs (75x copies at a time). Most of the firms I am talking to usually refer me to the one I am working with once they find out what I am trying to do.

As I said, Lance and I have a couple solutions brewing that will permenantly fix this. We just need to make it a priority and get it fixed.

Again I apologize for all the problems.

We WILL get this fixed though.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue May 27, 2008 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
Brock Poling wrote:
[


You might try a contract drafting firm
Author:  GregH [ Tue May 27, 2008 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
Brock,

Thank you for responding and accepting responsibility. We have a better understanding of the problem now and I hope you find a solution soon.
Author:  Ben Pak [ Tue May 27, 2008 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
GregH wrote:
Brock,

Thank you for responding and accepting responsibility. We have a better understanding of the problem now and I hope you find a solution soon.


I, too, will be waiting patiently. Thanks for the update,

Ben
Author:  Sanford Stanton [ Tue May 27, 2008 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
I like the plans and the service that are provided here at thiis site :D . As soon as the plans are back...(online to order) I'm going to SHOW my support by an order. [:Y:]

To all those involed in this site my thanks bliss !

Sanford D. Stanton aka Standin
Author:  Frank Aarre [ Tue May 27, 2008 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
Part of the reason why i started this thread was to give Brock and Lance a public place to tell what is going on instead of having to deal with a bunch of individual e-mail.

I really do appreciate the efforts they make to keep the show going, this is an exeptional forum.

I have no problem paying 2or 3 times the price of the plans, just for the sake of supporting the forum. I was just interested in getting some info as to when the plans could be expected.

Again, did not want to start a series of personal attacks or legal threats by posting this. [uncle]
Author:  James W B [ Tue May 27, 2008 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: plans
Brock ,I appologize for ragging on you so badly.I really would hate to see this service go by the wayside.Lance don`t send me any money back.Personally I would rather wait and have the forum benefit.All I really would ask is that if it is going to take 2 to 3 months ,just let us know up front.For those who can`t wait,then they have the choice to look elsewhere.Heck I can always build a different style guitar,until the plan I ordered comes.
James
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