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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Thickness Sander Recomendations |
Please! This seams to be one of the most important shop tools for instrument building. So, who makes useful, quality ones. If you don't use one, what do you use to achieve the same result? BTW, SawStop is realeasing a contractors version June 8. Got rave reviews in FWW. A bit pricey at $1400, but I think it just may be worth it. Mike |
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| Author: | Eric Mathre [ Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
Mike, Yes, unless you're quite skilled with a hand plane, a drum sander for thicknessing is crucial, in my judgement. These seem to have only become widely available in relatively inexpensive models within the last 20 years or so. I think you'll find that a number of folks have either the 10" (10-20 model) OR 16" (16-32 model) Performax drum sanders. The smaller one works fine for guitars, you just have to run each piece through twice. I bought the 16-32 rather than the 10-20, since it comes with a stand and I don't have extra bench space. I'm very happy with mine, but I find I need to be very careful to only try to take off very small increments with each pass (less than 1/4 of a turn of the adjustment level thing). I'm pretty sure there's happy Delta owners, too. And some folks have purchased more expensive models that sound even better that I don't know very much about. Eric |
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| Author: | LiquidGabe [ Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
One of these days I'll have the skills to thickness with a plane. Even then I'll still love my Delta. In my head it seems like a better design - the table moves to adjust thickness rather than the cutterhead. In reality I don't know if it makes a difference. |
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| Author: | Dave Fifield [ Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
Mike, I've had a Performax 16-32 since they first came out (around 1998 IIRC). Mine came with the stand, wheels, and infeed/outfeed extension tables. Having now used it for all kinds of woodworking for many years, I have come to the conclusion that I would have been better off spending another kilobucks or two to buy a bigger/better machine, one with dual drums, support/bearings on both ends, and with a 25" or greater working width. With the 16-32, you can't take off more than about 1/128" (1/8th of a turn of the height adjuster) per pass and expect the wood to remain flat. There are two reasons for this. One is that no matter how hard you try, it's just not possible to get the sandpaper tight enough around the drum, so if you push it too hard, it doesn't sand evenly over its width. The other is that the gantry at the open end of the work gets pushed up, resulting in the machine producing a wedge shaped board instead of a flat-sanded board. This problem can be somewhat mitigated by turning the work around through 180 degrees and running it through again, however if you try to take off too much in one pass like this, you end up with a pointy surface, with a ridge in the middle. It's really frustrating sometimes, especially when sanding hardwoods, such as are used for backs and sides of guitars. I intend to trade up to a bigger/better model as soon as I get more space. I'll probably keep the 16-32 though, set up either with some 220 grit for light duty finishing. YMMV. Good luck. Cheers, Dave F. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
I like my 10-20 just fine and it works great for me producing results within .002 all over the plate. 1/8th of a turn max is advisable for best results and good dust collection, I use 134 CFM from a Festool, helps to keep the drum cool and prolong the life of the paper. The double pass sanding (because of the 10" width and open drum end design) is no problem at all. Although there are better solutions you will pay dearly for them too so at $550ish the 10-20 is IMHO the best thing going and my personal favorite tool. There are a number of 16-32 users on this forum who have previously had a 10-20 and have in the past written that they preferred the 10-20 and found it more accurate. Perhaps they will weigh-in here. Keep in mind too that a wider drum sander needs better dust extraction too which will also cost you more if you do not already have this in place. And as Mike says a drum sander is pretty important to have and you will find more and more uses for it once you have one. Wrapping the drum with the paper is also easier, IMHO, on the 10-20 simply because you have less paper to wrap and can get it tighter. Once one has a little practice wrapping the drum getting it tight enough is a piece of cake. If I could do it all over again I would still purchase the 10-20. There are not many things in my life that I can say that about..... |
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| Author: | L. Presnall [ Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
What Hesh and Todd said...I've used the Ryobi knockoff of the 16-32, then the Grizzly 24" monster...and now have downsized to the Performax 10-20 since I only build guitars now...I'll never need any other sander...the 10-20 is perfect for my needs and takes up far less space than the Grizzly...Hesh, you say the Festool extractor works well with the 10-20? I posted a thread with that question last week, but no real response...guess everyone was away.... |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
I have a Performax (Jet is the same machine) 10-20 and a 16-32 both are good machines. If I had to I could get by without the 16-32 in any kind of pinch. Right now you are only thinking you plate thickness but after you had one for a while you find yourself truing up neck blanks and blocks and may other things with it. Well wroth the investment. and for $1400 I would think you could come close getting drum unit. I have less than that in both of my sanders combined. |
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| Author: | Allen McFarlen [ Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
I've got the Performax 10-20 and love it. Set up was spot on right out of the box. Most of the thickness sanding done in guitar building is only on small parts anyway, so you save on sandpaper and flipping the top and back plates isn't much of an issue if the machine is set up spot on. I also think that the shorter arm has less tendency to flex than the larger open gantry machines. |
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| Author: | Steve Walden [ Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
Has anyone tried the Woodmaster? It is a planer, gang saw, profile cutter and drum sander combined, made in KC, Kansas. Web site: http://www.woodmastertools.com/s/specs.cfm It looks like a good machine. |
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| Author: | patmguitars [ Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
I have the Delta 18 inch 31-255X model. It is good and performs well, but not great. I get the feeling that people with the Performax are a bit happier with it. Here are a couple of points about the Delta: -For hardwood, 1/8 and sometimes only 1/16 of a turn for each pass is as much as it can chew and maintain an even surface on the wood. It has taken me up to 30 minutes at times to bring a jointed Rosewood back from its 5.5mm thickness to about 2mm. -A shop dust collector is required. I though at first that just plugging in my shop vac would do, but it isn't enough. -The moving table is mounted on 4 legs. 1 is on a ball bearing system (and works great), but to save money they put the other 3 on a perpertual screw system (is that how it's called? I no mechanical whizz...), which have a tendency to get jammed with dust particles. After a while, the rubber belt that turns the 4 legs to go up and down starts to skip, and the whole alignment is out of whack. You then have to realign the legs perfectly or it will keep skipping. For a mechanically challenged guy like me, it is a bit of a pain in the neck. Once realigned properly though, the whold thing performs pretty well, at a precision of about 1 or 2/10 of a mm . -Once a year, I call my Delta guy to come in and clean the screw leg mecanisms in depth. It takes him about an hour or a little more. It will then work great for about 4 to 6 months, after which is may require realignment by me every 2 or 3 months. I would have him come every 4 months on the dot if I could afford it... Overall, I would give it a 7.5 rating out of 10. BTW my maintenance guy told me he asked Delta if he could modify the machine by replacing the screw legs with ball bearing mechanisms, so that they would all be ball bearings. The request was denied. As soon as the 5 year warranty is over, I will have him to it on mine. For a few hundred bucks, I am sure it will improve the machine a lot and I won't need to have him over every year after that. Another note: as you probably know already, Delta was bought by another company a few years back. The guys at the local Delta maintenance center have all told me, off the records, that there has been a noticeable drop in product standards ever since. They even hinted at times that the old refurbished tools that the sell at the maintenance center (the ones that were originally manufactured before the buyout) are ofter better than the brand new models. This could be worth considering... Cheers, Pat |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
WaldenWorx wrote: Has anyone tried the Woodmaster? It is a planer, gang saw, profile cutter and drum sander combined, made in KC, Kansas. Web site: http://www.woodmastertools.com/s/specs.cfm It looks like a good machine. Steve, It looks like you couldn't thickness sand a joined plate - too narrow. Plus, I'd steer clear of anything that claims to have that many functions. Pat |
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| Author: | Steve Walden [ Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
Pat Foster wrote: WaldenWorx wrote: Has anyone tried the Woodmaster? It is a planer, gang saw, profile cutter and drum sander combined, made in KC, Kansas. Web site: http://www.woodmastertools.com/s/specs.cfm It looks like a good machine. Steve, It looks like you couldn't thickness sand a joined plate - too narrow. Plus, I'd steer clear of anything that claims to have that many functions. Pat Pat - Thanks for the response. There is an 18" machine that should be able to handle a jointed back or top. My only reservation would be alignment hassles. The 18" uses a 5 hp motor which is pretty heavy for thickness sanding. I have no idea how the paper is attached and how accurate it would be. |
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| Author: | stan thomison [ Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
I am getting the new Grizzly 18" open end table for $850.00. It has built in dust collection (although will keep the old one around should I need it) The table is what raises and lowers like the bigger units. 3" abrasive in various grits to 220. 110 volt other features that works for me. What little did on a practice run with a demo, it was really accurate. The DC worked well also, abrasive clips on, lot of decent features. I had the 16" previously and worked well sanding, but the design of how the abrasive is changed and is secured with tape sucks. I don't know how stacks up with the other brands like Delta or Performax, General etc. but for a smaller unit and what we do it should be fine and demo worked with the soft and hardwoods we use well. I have used the other brands and wide belts and for what we do this is probably fine and just as good. I like the width of it, mostly because I join the plates a little thicker maybe than some. I just on a personal basis prefer that than at close to final thickness. Does good acurate work, setup and abrasive setup good. Not big footprint etc. If not for the cost and had room, would go with wide belt, but that isn't the case. Even used the little 12" they have and that works fine also. I did some braces and other smaller work on that and worked very well, but like the bigger unit tape use to secure the abrasive. I like the 18" and guess makes it an 18"-36", but doubt will make a body bigger than 18" and probably never one of those in a drumsander. Can't beat I think for size, accuracy and work we do for price, but that is just me. I seen a Craftsman somewhere on line and this from pic's and description is the same thing. I don't know which one had it out first, but probably Craftsman. |
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| Author: | Greg [ Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
Delta 18-36. Love it. |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
ToddStock wrote: As to SawStop technology - understand the limitations (still does not prevent doing dumb stuff) and what you are getting with a contractor's saw versus a cabinet saw, then look at what you are likely to do with the tool over the next 10 years. For the same money, you could have a nice Grizzly cabinet saw or a Jet Exacta cabinet saw, so you might look at just how much of a risk you are with a saw in terms of level of skill, attentiveness in shop, ability to visualize and eliminate safety issues, etc. By that, I mean a realistic assessment, rather than the usual 'no problem/good to go.' There is no such thing as an accident on a tablesaw. I have never seen anyone injured that did not say afterwards that they were working stupid, tired, or both. While I think the SawStop should be mandated for folks that routinely find themselves with work cut an even 10 inches too short (they WILL end up hurting themselves and others at some point), there's a lot of folks that will never need the technology because they are thinking tool users that will not work stupid and can recognize tired before it becomes the dominant factor in their decision making. In between, there's a large population of folks that will probably do something stupid at some point, and the SawStop will prevent a particular type of injury for a small percentage of those people. FWIW, my dad - although a talented engineer and decent craftsman - was someone for whom a SawStop would have been a better bet than a BT-3000...that surgery was expensive! Is there someone who never works stupid? Unlike tired, one often sees it only in retrospect. I have seen more than one person injured on a table saw who did not admit to working stupid or tired, BTW. Not that I'm going to run out and get a SawStop. Risk/benefit balancing is part of life every day, e.g., every time one gets in the car. Story about legendary woodturner Bob Stocksdale, who worked into his 80's: a friend of mine was interviewing him for an article (he was in his late 70's) and asked him the secret of his longevity as a wood worker. He raised his hands and wiggled 10 fingers, and said "I never work after 3 pm." |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
The Woodcraft near me already has the SawStop contractor's saw, and it's way better than my Powermatic contractor's saw. Everything about it is quality, and may be the best contractor's saw on the market. Of course it's more expensive than any of the others too, but it's also very good. If I had the money...I'd get a Grizzly wide-belt sander, either the 18" or the 24". Nearly did buy one, but decided that the wood biz just took up too much time and money and I decided to scale back rather than scale up. Good thing too, because most of my wood sources dried up. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
Dumb question here but what makes a saw a "contractor's" saw and not just a table saw? Sorry too for the high-jack. Thanks |
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| Author: | Conspiracy [ Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
Hesh wrote: Dumb question here but what makes a saw a "contractor's" saw and not just a table saw? Sorry too for the high-jack. Thanks A contractors saw has the motor hanging out of the back (open base). While a cabinet saw has the motor internal to the base. Cabinet saws are typically more powerful, stable and provide for better dust collection. Cabinet saw:  Contractor's saw: 
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| Author: | Mark Ewing [ Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
Has anybody used or considered the "v drum sander" by stock room supply? 
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| Author: | Hesh [ Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
Got it - thanks Conspiracy. |
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| Author: | KenH [ Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
I have the performax 16/32. It worked fine when I was just building one guitar at a time, but now I find myself spending DAYS thicknessing my woods and it is wearing me out. I could use a much bigger one and I definitely want one with bearings on both ends. A double drum sander would even be better. It is the one machine that I use the most, with the band saw coming in a close second. My advice on those 2 tools is to get as much as you can afford. You wont be sorry. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
Well, I have studied the options and based on my intended use, the 10-20 Jet looks good. Now, what sanding materials should I stock? What grits for what purposes? Best brands? Thanks, Mike |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
I use 80 grit for hardwoods and 120 for softwoods. I use Performax paper but want to try some others - just have not got around to it yet. |
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| Author: | Sheldon Dingwall [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
mark11 wrote: Has anybody used or considered the "v drum sander" by stock room supply? I have one. I bought the new steel frame/mdf top for it. I think it shows promise, but until I either flatten the table, or build one that stays flat, I won't know for sure. It's not a thickness sander, it's for fine sanding. It takes 3 or 4 passes to sand off a pencil line. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thickness Sander Recomendations |
It sure is expensive for a surface sander. |
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