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| Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=17519 |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Having just retired from 34 years at the New York State Museum I'm taking a bit of "vacation" before I get down to building full time and decided to get back to a Torres replica project that I started a while ago. The Torres SE 151A seen in the later editions of Jose' Romanillos' book is one which I discovered here in Albany around 1988. The guitar was later sold by its owners (the granddaughter of a woman who had emigrated from Almeria in Spain during the 30's) at Christies in London for around $20,000. Fortunately I was able (after making a new peg and a few other minor repairs) to keep the guitar and document it for several months. Here is the main drawing of the top bracing with notes. Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica 004.jpg As well as written notes and dimensions etc... Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica 006.jpg The braced top being glued to the neck Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica 001.jpg Clamping the foot and neck block Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica 002.jpg The 3-piece cypress back and sides with linings being installed Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica 003.jpg The linings are spruce as on the original and are continuous kerfed both top and back Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica 005.jpg The peghead with the preliminary shaping complete Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica 007.jpg This guitar is quite small by today's standards and has a 610 mm scale. It is quite similar to the small Torres guitar SE 117 featured in Courtnalls book which we saw in Spain at the shop of Jose' Romanillos this past summer. Though there are other Torres guitars which perhaps would be a better musical choice to copy, having had this one in my hands for a period of time and detailed notes and photos, I felt it is my best opportunity to make a replica closer to the character of a genuine Torres than would be otherwise possible. |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica |
Great info & pics Dave!! Your dedication and love of these instruments makes you a valued source to all guitarmakers ! ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") Pencil lines -instead of saw marks?? keep up the great work !!!! Your retiring!!!!!! Holy s*** -now you'll really get some time to make those beautiful guitars of yours!!!!! Mike |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica |
Dave! I'm jealous! I just have no guts, or experience.  The plan looks great, as does the progress on the instrument. Can't wait to see this one finished, after your last venture in a Torres copy.
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica |
WAY Cool!! Can you describe the sound of this small type of guitar? I imagine they lack bass depth but sound sweet with good separation and are well suited for early, very traditional and uncomplicated spanish/flamenco music. I plan to build one of these sometime as well. |
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| Author: | Marc [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica |
Dave, Great project, please keep posting pictures as you progress, I would really like to see this one as it comes along towards completion. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Continuing progress on the Torres SE 151A Replica project: The top with rear block and neck now attached and ready for the sides to be fit. Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica-II 001.jpg Linings are now attached to the sides and ready to be fit. Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica-II 002.jpg I'm using a cardboard insert between the small workboard (solera) and the top in order to add 2mm of "lift" to the neck as well as accomodate the doming of the top created when the braces were glued using my regular full size contoured solera. Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica-II 006.jpg I'll be putting the guitar together on the work board using the "free assembly" technique where the sides are assembled onto the top and neck using a pencil line tracing of the body shape under the top as a guide. Here is where hot pipe bending the sides can be a big advantage in that there is less "spring back" to wrestle with as you go. Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica-II 007.jpg In addition to the linings being removed at the brace locations, the braces themselves are trimmed back to allow the thickness of the sides plus an additional mm or so. Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica-II 014.jpg The side are fitted, then glue applied and clamped...I'm using fish glue on this one as it will give me extra "open" time. Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica-II 011.jpg In clamping the sides are carefully aligned with the pencil line on the top. Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica-II 008.jpg The process is completed on the other side, here both sides are now in position and clamped.....no, those aren't the big quick grips, they are the regular small ones, it shows just how diminutive this guitar is! Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica-II 016.jpg
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Now it's time to install the "rib blocks" under the braces. In Torres' design the harmonic bars are parallel and left square at the the ends to take these small supports. The block has been "skewered" on to a sharp tool and glue applied. Fish glue has a very high tack and is perfect for this application. Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica-II 012.jpg You can see the "toothing plane" marks I've added as on the original. The rib block in place. Both harmonic bars on top will get these as well as the back braces. Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica-II 013.jpg Torres is known to have followed the construction technique of back braces being installed into the body prior to the back being glued on. Though I have done this technique, the lack of a wood back reinforcement strip on this guitar (which is quite helpful in registering the back when glueing) would make fitting it in this way quite tricky. Here are the back braces being glued, I'll leave the squeeze out as is to simulate the results of Torres' technique and fit it up normally adding the rib blocks beforehand. Notice the handwritten 19th century music paper which I've replicated as an accurate facsimilie of what was used to line this guitar and many other 19th century Spanish guitars. Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica-II 015.jpg
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Nice Dave-Nice! What rosette design did you us on this one? Mike |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Here it is Mike, it's a replica of the original with black and white lines, rosewood and one green circle(?!). Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica-II 003.jpg Also the top is made up of three pieces of German spruce with the join running at a diagonal and the third piece on the lower treble bout. Attachment: TorresSE151AReplica-II 004.jpg
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Is the small solera completely flat? In that case, the carboard seems not to be helping the neck lift up; but on the contrary. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Yes, the solera is flat and the cardboard extends only under the top to the point of the neck/top join. The neck is clamped at the nut end directly onto the surface of the solera (upside down) giving it a "lift" (around 2mm) equal to the cardboard's thickness. |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Big duuh. I didn't realize the white part is thick. I just thought it is plain white paper 
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Again -great work !! Your dedication to making these "Torres" models as close to the originals is just incredible!!!!!!! You may have motivated many guitarmakers to research & build some historicly important instruments!!!! You should be proud ! Mike |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Oh man! You close your eyes for a day or so and look what shows up! Good job David. I've got a few SE117's in the works, but not nearly so authentic as yours. Maybe one day I'll be able to surrender myself completely to the old Don... |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
David, that is fascinating, as you might know I'm almost fanatical about Torres and building with as much historical accuracy as possible. I like the toothing plane marks! What's the origin point of the kite? Colin |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
To me it looks the same as SE117, at about the fret before the last - 79mm in Romanillos book, but David's braces seem to be more spread out. In 117 they do not seem to interfere with the linings. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Colin, Alex, The apex of the braces seems to be at around the 16th fret (of 18 total). I made at least two drawings of the top (almost 20 years ago) when the guitar was in the shop having made the second to correct some innaccuracies as to brace thickness. These don't quite agree as to the fan apex but are quite in accord that the ends of the outermost fans come to within about 8mm of the outside of the lower bout. As you know, SE 117 was heavily worked over before Jose' restored it and SE 151A was made in the last year of Torres' life and shows some very uneven workmanship as well as perhaps other another hand involved in its construction. I'm not surpised that there is some variance between them. Also too as a perspective, this is really a tiny guitar (only 67-72 mm in depth) and I remember being relieved that the bridge wasn't loose as I couldn't get my hand inside to place a caul, thus it was difficult to measure. I seem to recall that I placed a light inside to record the brace positions. At any rate I'm enjoying the project and will contunue to post my progress. Best! |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Here is something perhaps relevant: Another tiny cypress guitar, 620 mm scale, made around 1900 by Manuel Ramirez who built in the Torres style. The page has 2 sound clips and they sound quite charming. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
actually, This one is extremely similar to the one I'm replicating....if you read the Bio you can see that Beltran may actually have had some participation in the construction of SE 151A. http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com/file ... eltran.htm |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Here are some more progress pics. Since the original frets on this guitar are the bar type, I'm cutting the slots on my Proxxon saw using a blade with the kerf reduced to about .050". Attachment: Torres Together 001.jpg Attachment: Torres Together 002.jpg The back on: Attachment: Torres Together 003.jpg As I mentioned, this guitar is quite small, here it is next to my replica of the Torres SE 114. Attachment: Torres Together 004.jpg The back on this guitar is the cypress 3-piece type seen on many of Torres' simpler guitars. Attachment: Torres Together 005.jpg Detail Attachment: Torres Together 006.jpg Next, on to the bindings! |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Nice! Looking forward to hearing about the final product. |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Coming on well David, this will make a wonderful little fireside guitar. I'm interested in your SE114, it's on my list of guitars to make. As you may know I'm a bit of a Tarrega fanatic, having recorded a number of his pieces, and I built my La lena guitar especially to capture the earlier Tarrega sound. I now need to build an SE114, do you know where I can get drawings of this? I could probably work it out from the measurements in Romanillos. Colin |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
Yes, The Guild of American Luthiers (GAL) now offers an excellent plan of SE 114 by Jeffrey Elliott drawn when he restored the guitar for the owner Sheldon Urlik. It's the one I used to make the guitar in the photos. It's very detailed and has a wealth of excellent info. Highly recommended! |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
David LaPlante wrote: Yes, The Guild of American Luthiers (GAL) now offers an excellent plan of SE 114 by Jeffrey Elliott drawn when he restored the guitar for the owner Sheldon Urlik. It's the one I used to make the guitar in the photos. It's very detailed and has a wealth of excellent info. Highly recommended! Thanks David, being on this side of the pond I tend to forget GAL! Colin |
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| Author: | BruceHerrmann [ Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres SE 151A Replica:Additional Pics! |
David, really exemplary work. I hope to see more of your guitars this summer in San Francisco. Thanks for this detailed post,it's great. Helps me realize how much more I need to learn! Very nice stuff. Best Bruce |
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