Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Anyone using laminent sides or top?

Thanks Guys.

Here is my thought...however simple: When I look at some of the great sounding archtops-electrics of the 50's, most were 3 ply. Gibson for example used plywood on all but a few arched tops. Then I believe they used spruce for the top, but I think the sides and back were still plywood. ES175, ES350, ES295, ES 125 are example of all plywood bodies. Now I would have to go back and re-study this, but I think the L5 had a solid top along with models like the Johnny Smith etc. Same goes for Gretsch all but a few had plywood tops. The 1957 Duo-Jet I have on my bench for repair has a plywood top and has quite a bit of accoustical tone/volume for chambered body. My own 57 Gretsch hollowbody sounds great both plugged in and unplugged. While plywood guitars are certainly not overly great sounding "accoustically" compared to a high end solid wood instrument, they have some merrit.

I have a design I want to try and may just give it a shot with maple plywood first.

Thanks!

Author:	JRE Productions [ Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Anyone using laminent sides or top?
Just wondering if anyone is using 3 ply laminents for side wood. Some of my favorite archtops use plywood for the body. I am wonder what the difference in working with this material would be. Specifically, how well does it bend? Do you soak it, or use the heat blankets...? Has anyone ever pressed an archtop into a plywood stock? I am sure there are plenty of discussion on the tonal qualities, but right now I am more interested in the building differences. Thanks! Joe

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Anyone using laminent sides or top?
Lots of custom builders use laminated sides. Meaning solid wood thinner with a backing sheet of a various other woods to provide crack resistance and strength. You will not find many that use laminated tops outside of double tops (Nomex sandwich) because simple laminated tops have a reputation of not aging tone wise and are often equated with lesser quality factory guitars

Author:	Hesh [ Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Anyone using laminent sides or top?
And - to add to what Michael said most of the folks that I know that use laminated sides use double sides which are bent separately before they are glued together.

Author:	DYeager [ Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Anyone using laminent sides or top?
Joe, nice to hear from someone interested in the laminated side of life. To answer your question, no, I don't know of anyone bending sides from plywood, although it might be possible, since no compound curves are involved. I think most ply is made with thermosetting glue - not designed to resoften with heat -that's what I think,maybe someone knows better, and most plywood is garbage anyhow, so why bother? That said, I have disected old, low-end guitars whose sides seemed to be a thick stack of plywood laminated together, which allowed the manufacturer to skip the lining, and the finish was so muddy and opaque, who cared how the surface veneer looked? As for pressing an arch into plywood - not likely, since trying to force those compound curves will have the ply buckling and trying to lap over onto itself; ask me how I know this. For my money (or yours) 3- or 5- ply, with crossplies, is the way to go, since the crossplies resist any tendency for the sides to cup. How do two parallel plies get away with it? I just don't know, unless it has something to do with thicker wood (thicker than veneer). Betcha someone will tell us. As to the sound (did you think you were home free?) laminated tops have been used for a long time, with especial success on acoustic electrics. Their construction helps control feedback, besides imparting it's own mellow sound, and as long as one doesn't compare their qualities, straight up, to an expensive carved archtop, well..... Dan

Author:	Howard Klepper [ Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Anyone using laminent sides or top?
Brian Burns glues up three layer sides in a form without pre-bending, and I think runs the middle layer cross grain.

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Author:	JRE Productions [ Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Anyone using laminent sides or top?
Thanks Guys. Here is my thought...however simple: When I look at some of the great sounding archtops-electrics of the 50's, most were 3 ply. Gibson for example used plywood on all but a few arched tops. Then I believe they used spruce for the top, but I think the sides and back were still plywood. ES175, ES350, ES295, ES 125 are example of all plywood bodies. Now I would have to go back and re-study this, but I think the L5 had a solid top along with models like the Johnny Smith etc. Same goes for Gretsch all but a few had plywood tops. The 1957 Duo-Jet I have on my bench for repair has a plywood top and has quite a bit of accoustical tone/volume for chambered body. My own 57 Gretsch hollowbody sounds great both plugged in and unplugged. While plywood guitars are certainly not overly great sounding "accoustically" compared to a high end solid wood instrument, they have some merrit. I have a design I want to try and may just give it a shot with maple plywood first. Thanks!

Author:	Ken McKay [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Anyone using laminent sides or top?
JRE Productions wrote: Thanks Guys. Here is my thought...however simple: When I look at some of the great sounding archtops-electrics of the 50's, most were 3 ply. Gibson for example used plywood on all but a few arched tops. Then I believe they used spruce for the top, but I think the sides and back were still plywood. ES175, ES350, ES295, ES 125 are example of all plywood bodies. Now I would have to go back and re-study this, but I think the L5 had a solid top along with models like the Johnny Smith etc. Same goes for Gretsch all but a few had plywood tops. The 1957 Duo-Jet I have on my bench for repair has a plywood top and has quite a bit of accoustical tone/volume for chambered body. My own 57 Gretsch hollowbody sounds great both plugged in and unplugged. While plywood guitars are certainly not overly great sounding "accoustically" compared to a high end solid wood instrument, they have some merrit. I have a design I want to try and may just give it a shot with maple plywood first. Thanks! The sides have little effect on sound regardless if the electric archtop is made with ply top or not. 3 ply sides are pretty similar to solid bent sides of equal thickness but are hard to make. This is because the wood is too thick to bend without heat and/or moisture. 5 ply laminated sides of equal thickness to solid bent sides are also equal sonically but are easier to make since they can be pressed and glued without heat. The best way to make your plates or sides is to press the individual layers into shape using glue to fix them in that shape. Vacuum pressing works well and so does a male/female mould contraption. On the other hand, trying to press plywood into shape is much more difficult if not impossible. You might serve yourself better just buying some plates and sides from Dan Yeager at Acme rather than setting up your production. Veneer is pretty expensive in small quantities and can take up a huge shop while it is processed into archtop rectangles.

Author:	John Mayes [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Anyone using laminent sides or top?
every McPherson top is a laminate in a sense. Some of them just flat out are a laminate (albeit high quality laminate woods)

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