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First Post and a Basic question
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Author:  cedar [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  First Post and a Basic question
Hello everybody,

Before I fetch my axe, I thought it would be wise to ask the well informed.... and so here goes my first post with the first question that came to my mind.
Are there alternatives to Cedar or Spruce for top wood, especially tropical woods. The reason being that I am from that part of the world (India) where access to these temperate woods is restricted. We do have spruce and cedar, but they are found only in the himalayan regions or in pockets of Highlands distributed around the country. While, I have access to tons of Indian Rosewood and Mahogany, It is the top wood that i am after. Of late it has become an obsession (My wife's observation though!)of mine to loiter bliss around town wherever a tree is being cut! and assess its potential for use as top wood.

I am just a hobbyist, with that in mind, I believe that the density of wood is the primary factor for consideration. Spruce (Picea spp. genus unknown) and Cedar (Red cedar) that is found in India have a density of 480 and 450 kg/m³ . The other tropical woods closest in density to these will be:
Aini (Artocarpus hirsutus,595 kg/m³)
Jackwood (Mangifera caesia, 595 kg/m³)
Mango (Mangifera indica,560-720 kg/m³)
Simul (Bombax spp. 450 kg/m³)
All the above are found in abundance

more information here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_timber_trees#cite_note-12

Handmade guitar is not a serious business here. whereas the lutherie of Indian string instruments such as the sitar and the veena is well established.A picture of both (Not my websites) for those interested:
Sitar
http://www.erpmusic.com/photos/AnoushkaShankarSitar300dpi.jpg
(lady in the picture is the daughter of Ravishankar, and the step sister of Norah jones)
Veena
http://mme.iitm.ac.in/vsarma/personalweb/veena.html

Jackwood is mainly used for their construction. The region where I live is six months of sun(32-40degC) and six months of rain, very humid. Not sure how cedar or spruce will keep fit under these conditions.

Your views are welcome

Cheers
Author:  Big John [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Post and a Basic question
cedar,
welcome to the best site on building guitars around.i am a newb so I am gonna let the pros around here answer this.But I would like to say howdy and extend the glad hand. 8-) [:Y:]
peace and respect
big John
Author:  cedar [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Post and a Basic question
Big John wrote:
cedar,
welcome to the best site on building guitars around.i am a newb so I am gonna let the pros around here answer this.But I would like to say howdy and extend the glad hand. 8-) [:Y:]
peace and respect
big John


Hey John,
Many thanks, see you around in the forum.

Have a great day

cheers
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Post and a Basic question
Hi and welcome!

I'm not sure what your mahagony is like but if it is straight grained, homogeneous, similiar to honduran then it might be a good top choice.

I see the sitar and veena have the same wood as the sides. Nice looking instruments.
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Post and a Basic question
Hi Cedar and welcome to the OLF! [:Y:] [clap] [clap] [clap]

My apologies in that I am clueless about the woods that you mentioned but I wanted to bump this thread for you and hopefully someone who can help you will.

Welcome aboard.
Author:  j.Brown [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Post and a Basic question
Around here, many folks feel that Indian Rosewood and Mahogany ARE top notch woods...with good reason, I might add. As to the others you mention, I've not seen them used, although I do see mango for sale as back and side woods from time to time.
-j.
Author:  cedar [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: First Post and a Basic question
Thanks Joe, Jack and Hesh

I am not educated in these woods either, all I know is that they are used for furniture making. And the Aini is supposedly water resistant.

I however managed to find well a informed exporter of tonewoods in my city, his clients are some of the major guitar makers in US of A. I talked to him over phone, and he was happy to make available red cedar. Although my future aim would be to experiment on indigenous tropical woods for use as top wood.

Hesh, I can keep looking at your black top guitar with fascination any number of time. It is a great looking guitar.

thanks and cheers
Author:  joel Thompson [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: First Post and a Basic question
Hi "cedar"
welcome the forum.

If your thinking of using hardwoods for a top wood you need to think of them in a diferent way than you would a soft wood.

density alone will probably not be a good indicator as to suitability.

as for what hardwoods might be suitable,
well mahogany is well used and has been used as a top wood for many years.
mango has also been used with good results and can be used for the entire body.

indian rosewood,
i would say no as its too dense and i would think it would "flop" out on you when you get down to the thicneses you need.

you could try indian laural as it has desity and texture somewhat simalar to walnut i belive (at least the sample i have do) and walnut is very good top wood.
i dont know any of the other woods you mentioned but if they work then you would do the guitar world a justice by introducing them to us all.

but general you want to go with the tried and tested woods like cedar, spruce etc if you want a tradotinal sounding guitar.

also you should take every peice of wood on its own merits
in general i would not use paduak as a top wood but i have a small number of really light striped stuff here that i have toped a guitar with and it sounds sooo sweet.
but will i ever find another peice just like it to offer for genral sale, I doubt it.

the moral is experement find what works for you and you never know you may well find the "holy grail of tone" :?

Good luck and let us know how things work out,

Joel.
Author:  Billy T [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Post and a Basic question
Howdy Cedar and welcome to the OLF!

First off, it sounds like your restricted on most commonly used woods but you have a resource with a big heads up being the sound board wood used in sitars, whatever that is! I'm only superficially familiar with the construction of veenas or sitars and know that main body is made of a gourd, but the soundboard material is an excellent place to start.

I don't know where your country regulations stand on bunya and koa. Bunya is an Australian pine and koa is a tropical wood used in sides and backs also.

Good luck on your sourcing we have very good suppliers on the top of this page, hope everything works out for you!
Author:  Lars Stahl [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Post and a Basic question
I am not sure I am the best person to givew you a ghood answer, but I would recommend you to check out Jeffrey Yongs guitars.
He uses Monkeypod for both back, sides and TOP. and it has won prices for best tone. so Monkeypod must be quite good as top wood. its found in many tropical countries in Asia. "or was tropical what you did not want ?" http://www.jeffyongguitars.com/gallery12.htm

Hope it helpt a bit. and yes, if youre just a bit like me, then obsession is a good word for most of us in here I guess hahaha. :shock: ,

Hope i could be of some use to you :-) Sincerely Lars
Author:  cedar [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Post and a Basic question
Many thanks to you all (Joel, Billy, Lars)

Joel
The "cedar", is after my cedar top classical guitar, the one I had as a student (not handmade). Couldn't transport it by air (costs more than the guitar!), It is now sleeping somewhere in London at a friend's flat. If I knew then what I will be up to as of now I would have purchased your alpine spruce! Probably next time. I will keep a eye on Indian Laural/Laurel and Mahogany.


Billy, I have no idea on veena construction either. From what I heard, it is a closely guarded secret and a family business especially in the case of a veena called Thanjavur Veena. There are other veena makers, but this one is the most sought after, just like the strads or the spanish guitars.I am not sure if we have bunya or Koa, perhaps they are known by different names. Will try the forestry college library.

Lars, thanks for the monkeypod guitar link, the guitar seems as if it were set on fire, great pattern.

Cheers
Author:  Zach Ehley [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Post and a Basic question
Ive seen Ukes with Mango tops. I've seen Mango 6 piece git sets for sale, but never a finished git wit a mango top.
Author:  cedar [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Post and a Basic question
zehley wrote:
Ive seen Ukes with Mango tops. I've seen Mango 6 piece git sets for sale, but never a finished git wit a mango top.


Discussion elsewhere suggest mango doesn't have the projection and volume as compared to cedar or spruce. BTW, I am actually planning for a Classical Guitar, which I forgot to mention in my first post.

cheers
Author:  LanceK [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Post and a Basic question
Welcome to the OLF Cedar!

Just a thought, Is there any reason you could not order a few tops of spruce or cedar from one of our OLF sponsors?
I suspect the shipping might be pretty high, but not much different than what we pay to get Indian Rosewood back and side sets here in the US ;)
Author:  cedar [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Post and a Basic question
Lance Kragenbrink wrote:
Welcome to the OLF Cedar!

Just a thought, Is there any reason you could not order a few tops of spruce or cedar from one of our OLF sponsors?
I suspect the shipping might be pretty high, but not much different than what we pay to get Indian Rosewood back and side sets here in the US ;)



Not at all, I could always ask acquaintances in the US to buy them for me. It's just that I am looking at indigenous options. I will have to obtain some quality accessories from our sponsors, unless I manage to find them here which is doubtful.

cheers
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