Official Luthiers Forum!

Here's the neck template I made for a Doolin adjustable neck joint. It is a prototype for an aluminum built one.
Neck block face, side veiw and neck face.

Bottom view and top view.

Okay, This is my first acoustic from scratch build and I decided to build this practice guitar from some free wood I had and to use an adjustable neck joint based on the Mike Doolin style. I know many build the neck block first with holes and capture bolts installed. But I got a little ahead of myself and morticed the neck block and glued the tail and neck blocks in this weekend after bending the sides. What I planned on doing was to now profile the sides and dish sand the rim (after making the dishes) then glue the linings and sand again to finish. Then at this stage or maybe after the top is glued on with the back off then go ahead and pop on the template and drill the holes and install the capture bolts and washers and glue the block plate together. I was thinking that if the top was on then I wouldn't have to adjust the neck holes for the top thickness. I'm wondering if there is any reason why this would not work? Is there something I don't fore see as to being a problem prohibiting this method ?

Chris,
Have you talked to Mike Doolin about using a design that he's pretty much responsible for?
It might be a good idea just to see if he has any problems with it. He's a great guy and one of
my very favorite builders. I'd give him a call if you haven't already.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

No, I've read his artical in American Lutherie #86 and there has been some discussions on it at MINF by Mark Swanson and a couple others as well as this one I posted there too. I know he seems to be a good guy as he responded to a question I had on his kerf linings jig and process that was in the last AL. As far as I know there isn't any problem with it as he is building with it and the only change made since the artical is that the top three points are in line and the bottom bolt is captured in the neck with the barrel nut in the neck block so that the neck back angle can be adjusted from outside the body instead of from the inside. The tricky part is alining the bolts holes so the capture bolts and barrel nuts aline and my template should eliminate that.

Chris, I think what Kevin is getting at when he mentions problems, is not related to whether the joint works or not but rather that it seems to be Mr Doolin's intellectual property and you should probably have his permission before using it. I guess this is for you or the lawyers to decide though.

_________________
Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

I'm sure he doesn't have a problem with it as he has looked in on a discussion at MIMF and had no problem with it or people modifying it for their use. In fact he seem pleased that builders were running with it. Do you think he would have put it out at the GAL convention and in AL if he minded people using it. It's just like here people put out their technics for people to use. Don't you think?

I have to say that I might have asked Mike Doolin's permission first, or I might have waited until I finished and and then thanked him for his terrific photo essay (17 pictures with commentary!) but I can hardly believe that Mr Doolin would have put that information out there as a GOTCHA! No, I say that the information was there to be used, and I prefer to think that Mr Doolin believes, like a lot (most) of us, that sharing is it's own reward.

So I'm going to jump in on Chris' and my behalf (haven't built one yet, but I can't ignore such a wonderful approach) and thank Mike Doolin for both of us.

Dan

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Dan
http://www.acme-archtops.com

If I know he doesn't mind I'm not going to bother him he's probably pretty busy. Maybe if this method works OK. I'll send him a template with some pictures of how I use it and see what he thinks about it. Then get StewMac to make the templates and we'll split the profits.

Chris buddy your craftsmanship looks excellent. In addition the the Doolin neck block your spreaders are about he nicest that I have seen.

Regarding obtaining Mike's permission to build his neck block I can appreciate all points of view here. But.... if it were me I would not only ask Mike for his blessings but I would also see this as an opportunity to speak with a world class luthier who is as innovative as can be. You may also end up with a very cool new friend.

Historically when ever something like this comes up on the OLF there will always be those who are keen to be sure that when using the IP of another both permission, if they are still alive, and attribution is present. You did the attribution part great.

Consider dropping Mike an email and also consider attaching some pics of your excellent work. I suspect that Mike will feel honored and even more so knowing that a craftsman with your abilities wants to use his design.

There is a jig currently pictured in an active thread here. I want to build one but even though it was pictured and discussed I don't see this as license to just proceed. Instead I will be contacting the jig's designer and requesting permission first. It's easy to do, the respectful thing to do, and I suspect that I will not only receive the designer's blessings but that they will help me out if I have any questions.

Chris,

I know Mike. He won't feel its an imposition, and regardless of what others have done, out of respect you should contact him. Quite frankly there's too much borrowing and not enough attribution and deference to those who came before. By asking permission and acknowledging others we take greater ownership of our own contributions.

Just a thought.

David D. Berkowitz
Berkowitz Guitars

Thanks David,
That was exactly my point. Chris, it won't bother Mike at all for you to call and touch base with him to let
him know that you're trying a very nice variation on his idea and design. As a matter of fact, it will probably
give him a very favorable first impression of you.

With the use of very unique and innovative designs by a few builders...think bevels, bridges and soundports
...in the past decade without proper permission or any credit being given just seems like a fair foundation to
contact Mike on.

It's just the right thing to do on the most fundamental level and it won't hurt for you to have a short
conversation with a world class builder who has influenced your design direction for building your own guitar.

All the Best,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I sent Mike an email as you were writing your post. I sent the pictures that are posted here for him to look over and ask if it was OK. to do and if not I would cease. I would have like to have called but I don't have long distance on my phone and I don't have a cell phone.

I asked Mike about it myself, when he first showed me his adjustable design at a GAL convention some years back. He told me he didn't mind if I or others used the neck block but not to copy his double cutaway body design, which he considers (and rightly so) something unique to his guitars. He wouldn't have written a big article in AL showing how to make it if he didn't want others to use the idea. It's still up to each luthier to adapt it to his own guitars. At a different GAL show, I took the guitar I built with the adjustable neck and showed it to him, he seemed to like that. I think it is a compliment if others use your good idea, and I would think Mike feels that way too, so show him what you have done with the idea!

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Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

Funny timing. I'm working on a variation of Doolin's neck joint as well.

I sent him an email last week asking if he'd mind. He said he didn't mind at all and only asked that I give him credit for the design. Nice guy.

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

Here's Mikes responce and I must also say that Mark Swanson gave me the idea of a template and mine is a take off of his design. And thanks to Mike Doolin and Mark Swanson.

Hi Chris,

Yes, I published the neck joint article so people could use the
design and adapt it to their own building. You have my permission,
just please credit me with the original idea.

Incidentally, I've changed the design since the article, reversing
the lower bolt so the adjustment is on the outside of the heel - see
http://www.doolinguitars.com/client/ghughes/cutaway.jpg. The main
principles are the same, it's just easier to adjust. I'm sure you can
figure out what to do if you decide to do it that way.

The template is a great idea, I should have done that 50 guitars ago!

Mike

The outside bolt is a cool idea (as are MOST of Mike's ideas!) ....so, how do you think he's doing it? How is the bolt set in there?

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Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

I'm not sure how Doolin is doing his adjustment on the outside, but here's my take:

The concept is the same as his in the GAL article. I've just notched the end of the botton bolt to allow adjustment from the outside with a flathead screwdriver. I'd like to get some machined with a hex insert instead.

This bottom bolt is captured in the heel block by a sliding dovetail. I didn't like the idea of permanently encasing the bolts, in case of a fall or something where they get bent/broken.

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

And with the key all the way out

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

That looks real clean, Mike.
Of course the reason that Mike has the captured bolts is to keep the neck from moving around when the strings are off. How do you handle that?

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Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

Perhaps the lower bolt is captured in the heel and the barrel nut is in the neck block? It could be there is a 1/4" groove router in the bottom of the tenon into the heel and a second slot cut to accept the head and washer and it's covered by the heel cap. Or a lower part of the tenon is taken off and the bolt is captured in the heel and the missing section of tenon is drilled out, slid over the bolt and glued back on. But I think the easiest thing would be to slot the bolt like Mike did.

Mark, I thought since the top bolt and the two set screws were inline that the neck would pivot on them when the lower bolt was turned and it wasn't nessesary to loosen the top bolt for adjustment. So the top bolt doesn't really need to be captured then does it? As long as the bottom bolt is captured with the washer holding it in tension when the strings are removed it should stay in place shouldn't it? I thought I read at first Mike Doolin didn't have the top three alined so the top bolt had to be loosen some to adjust and then Mike realized that if they were inline they would pivot and that allowed him to put the adjusting bolt accessable from the outside since there was no reason to loosen the top bolt. But I could be wrong about that this is still new to me.

I was out in the shop and was looking over the template and the bolts when I was thinking how to do the outside access to the bolt. What if the barrel nut was installed into the neck block which would be simple enough. Ok then all you would have to do would be drill the 1/4" hole through the tenon as usual but completly through the heel. Next just open up the 1/4" tenon hole to 5/8" to a depth of your choice. Then drop in the washer and then the bolt and then take a 5/8" dowel with the center drilled out 1/4" or maybe 5/16" for a little wiggle room and glue it in. The clamp with a proper caul could draw the dowel in to compress the wavy washer to where you want the tension to be. Then you could use the allen head and wouldn't need any other different parts. I think that seems easy enough. I might go ahead and give that a try. What do you guys think? I think I'd rather have the allen for adjusting then a slot. You could even make the access hole smaller then 1/4" if you cared too. And if you wanted to get really fancy you could probably make a threaded wood plug for the access hole if you wanted it to be less noticable. Also if for some reason you had to repair the bolt or replace it you might be able to take a 5/8" hole saw and cut the plug out. You might have to open it up a little larger and replug it with a larger dowel. Of coarse you would need a vise and drill press.

Thanks, Mark. That is why I have the bottom bolt captured by the sliding dovetail "key". I just want to be able to remove it in case it gets bent or broken. In other words, the "key" or "lock" normally stays in there unless you need to remove the bottom bolt. The top bolt always stays tight, unless you need to remove the neck. The whole contraption is very tight even with no strings.

So it is essentially the same as Doolin's as he published it in GAL. I've just notched the opposite end of the bottom bolt, and there is a hole all the way through the neck heel to access it.

Chris, I think your idea would work very well. I really considered doing it that way, actually. I just didn't want to have a dowel showing through the heel. Not that you couldn't make it look really cool.

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

Mike the dowel wouldn't have to show through the heel. Your using a butt joint , right? So you would only bore the hole to 1/4" from coming through the heel. The dowel would only be seen at the butt joint. I don't know how thick your heel is as you might have to go to a tenon if it isn't thick enough though. From what Mike Doolin said," reversing the lower bolt", I'm guessing that's what he did. And being the tenon is only an inch drilling 1 1/4" would be no big deal. Seems to me the way to go. Oh yeah, the key is pretty slick.