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| Dovetail vs. Bolt-On http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=18024 |
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| Author: | Michael Jin [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
In my unending quest to try to understand guitars (and it really does seem like it will never end), I've recently started to wonder seriously about this topic. Of course there are the obvious differences between the two in terms of the assembly process, but aside from this is there any real difference between the two? I've heard people claim difference in tone, consistency through humidity changes, etc. but honest to God I've looked at guitars with both types of joints and I can't find any significant difference between the two. Is there something I'm missing that a more discerning eye/ear might have caught? Or all of these touted differences a bunch of hype? |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
I've heard plenty of testimonials that these small pills really can make a man larger.  There are people who are certain it makes a notable difference in tone, (and somehow the dovetail always wins as "better"  ). Absolute certainty can be very subjective though, even when based on controlled testing.
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| Author: | Jimmy Caldwell [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
I've built both ways and while it's hard to make a case that the neck joint contributes significantly to the tonal qualities of the guitar, I do think that the dovetail allows you to build a lighter guitar. And, depending on what type of block system you use, the bolt-on joint can severely restrict plate movement in the upper bout. There's an ongoing debate about this, but I'm in the camp that believes there are some tonal advantages to be had there. The hardware used to attach the neck is relatively heavy as compared to a like amount of wood, and to my ear, all other things being equal (they never are, but for the sake of argument) lighter guitars sound better and are more comfortable to play. Just my .02. |
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| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
It is almost impossible to make a double blind test of this. Either a guitar has a bolt-on or it doesn't so you can't really compare before and after and back again. If you compare different guitars than there are too many variables in the sound that aren't related to the neck attachment. The only test you could do would to build a dozen or so guitars which half of them have bolt-on and the other dove tails. You then to listening tests with a group of players/listeners. If any of them can identify which of the guitars have the bolt-on and which have the dove tail, then you can say that there is a difference. In my opinion you only need one person who has this ability but it would have to be 100%. If you want to accept 5 out of 6 accuracy, you might need to have more than one person who can do it. I'd accept the results if the listeners guessed wrong almost all the time. That would mean that there was something in the sound that they were detecting. As to whether the dove tail sounds better, that would be a matter of taste. I'm not one of those who can hear a difference. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
I stated building dovetails and switched to a bolt-on five years ago. I personally have noticed no loss in sustain or noticeable difference in tone. That said the reason I chose to build with bolt-on is three fold Ease of manufacturing: While with a good template set making a dovetail is no big issue. It is a tad quicker to cut a straight tenon than a dovetail. Ease of assembly: fitting a dovetail is not what I would call heard but for me anyway fitting a bolt-on is simpler. Ease of reparability: Not having a glued neck joint makes neck removal simple and less risk prone, particularly with my new bolt-down FB extension and neck block. So for me the choice had more to do with manufacturing attributes than any other reason. |
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| Author: | John How [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
Since I went back to using a dovetail joint on my necks about 30 guitars ago I see nothing but the positive. My guitars sound better!!! Are lighter in weight!!! Are better balanced!!! Are more fun to make!!! Will employ a luthier down the road should a reset be needed!!! Just my unbiased opinion of course!!! |
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| Author: | Sylvan [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
I consistent hear the old addage that dovetails are lighter (and sound better) but I have yet to see a quantitative analysis of exactly how much lighter (can't measure "sounds better"). I have built both ways and cannot hear any subjective difference. Somebody said it right-if a listener or a player can consistently tell the difference then I would believe there is a difference. I don't think anyone has made that analysis and until they do, to say one is heavier, lighter, or sounds better is just perpetuating the voodoo of the craft. |
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| Author: | John How [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
Sylvan wrote: I consistent hear the old addage that dovetails are lighter (and sound better) but I have yet to see a quantitative analysis of exactly how much lighter (can't measure "sounds better"). Lighter by the weight of two bolts and two nuts of some sort, in my case two barrel nuts which are fairly heavy(slightly more if your bolting on the FB extension). The improvement to feel and balance, for me is real but you are correct, no way to measure the other qualities. The weight and balance is one of the reasons I like to use CF rods instead of adjustable truss rods so it means a great deal to me. And it gives me pleasure to make this joint  .
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
I started with dovetails, went to bolt on with a glued extension and wound up with a total bolt-on following Sylvans technique. I really can't tell a lot of difference as far as tone to my ear. I'm a huge fan of the total bolt-on neck. I have not seen any downside so far. Terry |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
Seems that with a butt joint, we could well end up saving weight over a DT joint, even with the added weight of the hardware. Pat |
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| Author: | Jimmy Caldwell [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
Pat Foster wrote: Seems that with a butt joint, we could well end up saving weight over a DT joint, even with the added weight of the hardware. Pat How do you figure that? |
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| Author: | Flori F. [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
Jimmy Caldwell wrote: Pat Foster wrote: Seems that with a butt joint, we could well end up saving weight over a DT joint, even with the added weight of the hardware. Pat How do you figure that? Smaller heel block, no? If the weight removed from the heel block is less than the weight of the bolts & inserts? |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
Jimmy Caldwell wrote: Pat Foster wrote: Seems that with a butt joint, we could well end up saving weight over a DT joint, even with the added weight of the hardware. Pat How do you figure that? The part of the neck block where the bolt(s) or hangar screws go through could be thinner by the depth of the mortise (around 3/4"?), considerably reducing the neck block/tenon weight. Weight in the hardware could be saved by using hangar bolts, which would eliminate the need for inserts, a la grumpy. This is all conjecture at this point, but I'm planning to use this arrangement on the next guitar I build for myself (or my daughter, we'll see who it ends up belonging to ). Butt joint users, any comments? |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
Pat Foster wrote: Jimmy Caldwell wrote: Pat Foster wrote: Seems that with a butt joint, we could well end up saving weight over a DT joint, even with the added weight of the hardware. Pat How do you figure that? The part of the neck block where the bolt(s) or hangar screws go through could be thinner by the depth of the mortise (around 3/4"?), considerably reducing the neck block/tenon weight. Weight in the hardware could be saved by using hangar bolts, which would eliminate the need for inserts, a la grumpy. This is all conjecture at this point, but I'm planning to use this arrangement on the next guitar I build for myself (or my daughter, we'll see who it ends up belonging to ). Butt joint users, any comments? I'm hardly an expert here, but my current block is 20mm thick (about 3/4"), with a spanish foot on the back, pair of CF flying buttress braces (thanks to Rick Turner for that idea), no heel on the neck, and a floating extension on the neck. I suppose doing the 'full Turner' with CF on a floating extension would free up the top and make (likely) a block system that's roughly equal in weight to a dovetail. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
I'm switching to a new system - two drywall screws through the heel into the block. It's adjustable too! 
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| Author: | John How [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
Don Williams wrote: I'm switching to a new system - two drywall screws through the heel into the block. It's adjustable too! Be sure to make that drywall screw a little extra long so you can bend it over and use it for a strap hook. |
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| Author: | tomaszcudzich [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
I've seen the two drywall screws method used in a cello, let me say the results were "satysfying". ![[headinwall]](./images/smilies/headbangwalluf8.gif "Mad")
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
Why are you guys so biased against drywall screws, they are very useful Stradivari himself would have used them instead of those rusty square nails, if he had such an advanced system as a drywall screw. |
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| Author: | James W B [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
I like drywall screws.Good idea Don. James |
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| Author: | Blain [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
I'm curious what tuners those of you concerned about weight use and are they the lightest on the market? Do you also avoid using Shell inlays because of the extra weight? |
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| Author: | Dave Fifield [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
I'm thinking about making a bolt-on dovetail joint on my next one. No glue, just one small (lightweight) bolt to tighten it down. Easily removed for resets etc. Best of both ideas IMO. ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") Dave F. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
Dave Fifield wrote: I'm thinking about making a bolt-on dovetail joint on my next one. No glue, just one small (lightweight) bolt to tighten it down. Easily removed for resets etc. Best of both ideas IMO. Dave F. Ooooo.....careful Dave! You have no idea what a hornet's nest you could be opening up with that one! It's practically blasphemous to some folks! Check out the archives for a discussion I started a couple years back on that..... 
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| Author: | Link Van Cleave [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
Has anyone used titanium bolts ? Seems a good choice if really concerned about weight. Could use aluminum as well. Very light and strong enough to hold the joint closed. Need to use anti-sieze on the threads of course. One could also hollow the steel bolts, not that hard to do. Just seems like most of the argument against bolted necks was weight and the hardware that caused it. Link |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
I also have tried both joints but I prefer the Dovetail. A butt joint will not be lighter , the mass of the joints are not the same. In the case of the butt joint , it may in fact impart more mass as you need 2 bolts to hold it on. On the mortise and tenon , at least one is used. On the dovetail there is none. As far as wood goes , there is less wood used in the dovetail, the wood of the neck replaces the wood out of the block short of the gap from the joint. The area of a dovetail is larger than the M&T provided you have a 1/16" gap . I agree I don't think you can do a true scientific case study on them however if Mass is the enemy , than the dovetail would win. john hall blues creek guitars |
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| Author: | Alain Desforges [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail vs. Bolt-On |
I think a lot of weight could be saved if the whole guitar was made out of carbon fiber. No? That, and titanium or some other fancy alloy... Then you could have a 'neck-through' design without ever bothering with neck joints. Hmmm... titanium frets... |
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