Official Luthiers Forum!

hi all
I’d be grateful for your valued advice.
On a Hermann Hauser model and also a Martin OM what top wood would you pair with a European Maple back and sides to coax it away from its neutrality of tone or what could it (the maple) be lined / laminated with to achieve a “more attractive- warmer” sounding tone colour.

The background
woohoo I’ve managed to source a maple billet in an Alpine store lodge (marked with the outline of a double bass neck) which has the same figure as in my post a month ago -

“Can anyone identify this wood”
viewtopic.php?t=17680

thanks for the encouragement Sam P & Steve K.
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find”
yours
Geordie

_________________
some tunes on acoustic and guitar synth.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGeordieAdams
http://www.myspace.com/geordieadams

I went through exactly the same thought process with my custom Martin 000 maple. I decided on Engelmann spruce for the top. It "warms up" the maple really well. It worked!



Rod

Well i would say alpine spruce.

Its what hauser would have used and you can probably et it from the same eupoean supplier you got the maple.
if not there are loads of good euro spuce suppliers as you allready know

I would lke to a pic of the large flame maple when you recive it.

Joel.

Hi Geordie,

The Euro maple sounds fabulous!

The top could be Englemann Spruce; added warmth with sparkle, or Western Red Cedar like the Lowden F35 Cedar/Maple I played sometime back, very sonourous and full bodied....

Geordie,

Cedar/European maple is a marriage made in heaven. This is my favourite of all the instruments I have made:



Here's a soundclip

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

For the Hauser, most definitely European spruce, no argument, don't even think twice.

For the OM, I'd go with Dave White and put a WRC (or redwood) top on it. As he says a marriage made in heaven, and that guitar of Dave's is really mine that he just hasn't sent to me yet, it's my favourite of his as well!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I'm waiting for some maple i had thought to pair up with lutz(both from shane), will be a fingerstylers guitar. any thoughts on the tonal properties of this match.
Might have to get me a cedar top for the maple though, as i really liked the sound of dave's guitar.
Anyone have a soundclip of a maple/lutz OM?

Thanks,

(sorry for the hijack)

FRank

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Frank

hey all
advice duly noted.
Now the hunt is on for Master Grade Cedar not easy in these parts, I have not seen anyone supplying it. Redwood is a non starter - does’nt seem to “float o’r this way.
Filippo, the Randy Reynolds typifies what I find unattractive with certain wood combinations and something I’d thought about, dark top - light b/s just looks wrong to me, anyone else?. I have no doubt it’s a great sounding instrument though.
Rod, Nice wee 000 and the cosmetic combination in the right order (for me). What's the head stock fascia material, looks like a tortoise substitute - nice though.
Joel, I’m don't worry I’ll get a pict to u.
Sam, “sounds fabulous” that's wot we wont.
Dave, nice playing and sound I detect a very rich mid/bass comin o’r there and nicely proportioned (OM?) git. (whats the first tune again?)
Colin, why so emphatic? bout the Hauser, Tradition or timbre?, what should I expect if well executed.(the guitar of course).
Frank, is that your lad?, looks like he’ll be a wild one - look out!, no hijack it’s abouut sharing.
yours
Geordie

_________________
some tunes on acoustic and guitar synth.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGeordieAdams
http://www.myspace.com/geordieadams

Geordie, Both the above. Hauser would most certainly (are we talking Hauser 1?) have used European spruce for his guitar tops, what you will get is the sound of a Euro top, coloured by the maple. Hauser was a builder in the Torres tradition, his bracing layouts are developments of Torres, who exclusively used European spruce for the soundboard. (There is an argument as to whether a good number of the European spruce soundboards were in fact Picea orientalis rather than P. abies, as there was good established trade routes bringing wood to the Iberian peninsula from the Levant).

I have listened to or played a vast number of high end classical guitars and have never heard one based on the 'Torres' style fan brace with a cedar top that came anyway near to sounding as good as the equivalent Euro topped ones. But I have heard a lot of Euro/maple ones that did, in fact I've just got a set of Birdseye maple for just such a guitar. For a classical to me it is a no brainer, European spruce.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

No problem, that leaves this gorgeous looking combination to the few of us that can really appreciate it



Shane Neifer has some great Master Grade WRC tops - he's in Canada where WRC comes from. Try Joel Thompson (OLF sponsor) or Bob Smith of Timberline here in the UK.



Thanks,

The first piece is Catherine Kelley's - after Tony McManus but rearranged in CGCGCD tuning. The second piece is one of my own called Daithi De Faoite's. The guitar is Grand Concert sized (15" lower bout).

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

geordie i have some wonderfull western red cedar email me if you need one i usualy give a small discount to olf members.
and i am a sponser here.

Joel.

Colin do you have any experience with cuacasian spruce (picea orientalis) as have a small batch coming in as we speak.
its supposed to be comprable to picea abies but bigger logs are available hence tighter grain and (much) lower price.

i will be doing a trial build with some and may ell be sending some tops out to my testers (let me know if you want to go on the list for this).
Alot of spanish makers have been using wood in favour of picea abies?

I will be doing deflection testing of a few tops but i have not long been doing this so i dont have much to referance against.

I am very interested in this wood an will be marketing it as viable alternative to the standard Euro if it turns out to suitable.

It actualy quite possable that some of the wood being sold as standard euro spruce is actulay caucasion spruce.

Joel.

Georgie by passing up the sonic qualities of the Cedar/Maple combination for purely aesthetic reasons your missing out on a a great musical combination, it is after all a musical instrument. But as Dave says that leaves it to those that can appreciate it.

Joel, yes I have quite a bit of P.orientalis in my stash. I have used it a couple of times and are using a set now for a cypress/orientalis classical. My recent FE19 homage was made using orientalis. Joshua has a set that I sent him some time ago, which he rates as some of the best spruce he has handled. I'm not necessarily a fan of the very closest grain on a soundboard, I tend to find that slightly wider grain gives a better board, but that's down to the individual builder. But yes, P. orientalis is a premium tonewood (with the usual caveats).

I've also got build a copy of my FE19 for one of the Professors' of guitar at the RCM and again I'll be using orientalis. Here's a link to mine. La lena

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

hi all
Dave & Colin I am grateful for your advice, music is my FIRST consideration and in that music is conveyed to us in sound then that would be my second, as a player the physical proportions of the instrument ought to be a natural extension to me, once these have been fully met then I would consider the visual aesthetics.
With the classical as suggested spruce / maple wins.
With the OM as suggested cedar / maple wins.
I will act on that advice.
Should I “tint” the maple varnish on the OM to make it a “prettier” combination to me???
And coincidentally I’m of to Edinburgh soon (it’s festival time) and am meeting up with someone who has used P.orientalis and “sings it’s praises”. I’ll get to try his instruments out.
Colin as with your violin the guitar is exquisite work.
yours
Geordie

_________________
some tunes on acoustic and guitar synth.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGeordieAdams
http://www.myspace.com/geordieadams

Geordie,

Looks work for people in different ways but I love the reverse of cedar/maple. I made the guitar as one of four models with a Celtic Festival theme. This was Samhain - the Celtic New Year - where light goes into dark and so the cedar/maple with the dark/light reversed from normal made sense. Thinking about it, it also works tonally - cedar has the more played in sound from new with great warmth and bass, but a tendency to be dark and muddy with notes "merging". Maple has great string to string clarity but can be bright and brash sounding. That's what I meant by a "marriage" - they play to each others strengths and combine to cancel each's weaknesses. It worked brilliantly for me. I would say go and play some first but there aren't many around. Jimmy Moon makes a lot of spruce/maple guitars though. By the way, don't believe it if people tell you that cedar tops don't open up over time - two and a half years on and the whole tone is way more mellow and open.

As for staining the maple it is going to depend on your tastes, the wood you are working with and the finish you use. I pretty much liked the maple as was but used Z-poxy to pop the figure and this made it a little more amber. I then used pre-cat lacquer on top. I liked the result but ymmv:

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Geordie, yes that's my lad he's about as energetic as they come(exhausting, but a lot of fun).

Dave, what's the binding on that guitar?

I'm very close to e-mailing shane about some WRC, if noone will talk me out of it
it'l be my first guitar so it probably won't be the determining tone factor

Frank

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Frank

Frank,

The binding is the Stew-Mac curly koa with koa/maple/koa side purfling.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

What is maple like to bend?

I am going to have to try this combo one day.

maple is fine to bend the highly figured stuff can "ripple' with curls so whatch out for that.
this can be avoided by using super soft 2 to relax the fibers of the wood.

Joel.

I will 2nd or 3rd the nomination of CM/WRC combo for the OM.

I love Cedar & Maple !
I made my first one in 1983!!
And the owner just can't get over the sound of the guitar!
He plays in the Cleveland Synphony and has a good ear!!

I tone my maple with a mixture of Ruby & Orange shellac !
It brings out the curls like crazy!!-BUT it's not violin looking !

You can go with a flexible spruce top !
It must be lite in weight and braced just right to get that big Cedar tone!

mike

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Mike Collins

hi all
Mike Collins - thanks for the shading advice,
But I’m confused by the following though
Can you put me right with this.

“You can go with a flexible spruce top !
It must be lite in weight and braced just right to get that big Cedar tone!”
OK you’ve intrigued me, on an OM what would be light cedar top ?, and what would be “braced just right” to get that big Cedar tone! cause that's what we want.
C’mon spill the beans, you cant just make statements like that a’n walk away, I’d be grateful for your advice on this
Oh don’t know if I mentioned this before but I see you live in Argyle NY
did you know it means Land (of the) Gael. Ard = land, gyle =gael.
I do an arrangement of a 400 year old Scots harp tune called The Lament for the Bishop of Argyle, I know, I know it had to be a lament, but we love our laments here it’s our “blues”.

“In 1766, after his service in the French and Indian Wars, Capt. Ranald MacKinnon was given a land grant of 2000 acres. He called it Argyle because he was reminded of his previous home in the Highlands of Scotland.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyll

yours Geordie

_________________
some tunes on acoustic and guitar synth.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGeordieAdams
http://www.myspace.com/geordieadams

Sorry to be unclear!!

What I meant was to use a SPRUCE top!
That is lite in weight!!!
center .110-tapers to .085 at the edges!
Like we use for "Flamenco" guitars!!!!
use no less than 1/4" braces for the X-taper them to (2mm)were they joint the linings!With a big scalloped area 40mm long to the 2mm end!
Taper from the center joint to the side !!!!A gradual taper!
make a .095"(2.4mm) bridge plate-use a brace glued right up to the plate that goes to the X's !
this brace should be 13mm tall and scalloped at the ends!!
sound hole should be 95mm!

I've made many like this and they are wonderful sounding guitars!!

Give me a hollar if i left something out!

Mike

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Mike Collins

Dave (and all you others), i've got some tunes i'll be working on that's in this tuning, but when i use different tunings with my crafter(a dread), i don't care for the sound of bass strings, gets sloppy and muddy, so that has put me off using dropped tunings.
So would you say that this wood combo(especially using maple i should guess) helps 'tighten' up the bass when dropping the bass strings? or is this more achieved in how you brace the guitar?
I'm interested in optimizing the guitar for altered tunings.
(Maybe this should be a new thread)

Frank

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Frank