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 Post subject: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:24 pm 
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Cocobolo
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I'm coming up to my next build and am trying to decide what top to build with.

My first is a EIR/Adirondack OM. My next will (most likely) be a cocobolo & something OM . I'd like to build a guitar with a warmer tone than my first for fingerstyle playing. (I love the first, but it can be almost jangly & raw in the trebles. Great for the blues.) I'm leaning toward redwood cause I've heard it can have a better base response than cedar...don't know if that's wrong.

Anyhow, I'm hoping to solicit your opinions, so a few questions...

Would redwood (probably) give me that warm tone I'm looking for?

Also, is there (generally) a difference in tone between curly redwood & straight grain?

Is anyone out there critical of redwood? Does anyone feel I'd be better off with euro or engelmann spruce, which'd improve more with age?

Thanks for your help.


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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:43 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Flori buddy there are lots of opinions about using Redwood as a guitar top and not all agree that it's a good thing to do. On the other hand some of the finest sounding guitars that I have heard have RW tops like Lance's guitars with LS (Lucky Strike) RW tops.

Rick posted about a year ago that he would never use curly RW for stability and an abundance of run-out reasons. David Collins is not a fan of RW tops either and RW can be brittle with little if any visual indications.

Tone wise IMHO RW is very warm and I would describe it as much like some of the finest WRC only with better volume and projection.

And of course again IMHO it is very pretty stuff and was a sincere pleasure to work with when I built a RW topped SJ. If you are not set-up to have a target deflection spec. and you do build with RW thickness it in between the general numbers for Spruce and WRC or in the .120ish area.


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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:04 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian
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Man nothing is wamer yet focused like Redwood you will not regret it!!!!!!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:44 pm 
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Cocobolo
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The LS Redwood topped E2 that Lance built for me is without a doubt the finest instrument I've ever had the pleasure of playing. When asked, I describe it as having the sweetness of Cedar and almost the exact same headroom as Spruce. If you're interested, I'll send you a copy of a recording of the E2 to have something to go by.


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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:12 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian
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pharmboycu wrote:
The LS Redwood topped E2 that Lance built for me is without a doubt the finest instrument I've ever had the pleasure of playing. When asked, I describe it as having the sweetness of Cedar and almost the exact same headroom as Spruce. If you're interested, I'll send you a copy of a recording of the E2 to have something to go by.


Ouuuuu!!!!! great discription [:Y:]


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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:16 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I'm currently building a OOO with redwood top (from Hank Mauel) and Cuban mahogany B&S. It takes a lot to make me build with anything other than Euro spruce! I'm even using redwood burl for the rosette. I don't like the curly type but good straight grained redwood is premium soundboard material.

Attachment:
004.jpg


Colin


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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:21 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Wow, you're all very convincing. Thanks for the responses!

The curly is just so pretty. Is its stability really that problematic?

Colin, is the top you got from Hank Mauel quite stiff? And would you also recommend starting with a thickness of .120 since I'm not set up for deflection testing? (sharp looking rosette, by the way!)


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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:26 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian
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I have build 2 with really curly Redwood with out issues structurally or sonic. That said My sinker straight grained redwood/Macassar ebony Hauser style classical is the sweetest, most complex classical I have ever played.


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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:00 pm 
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Koa
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Can anyone elaborate on this LS Lucky Strike redwood? Ive seen this a few time on the forum, but could never find an explanation.


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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:05 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I build with thin tops so I'm probably not the best person to advise on thickness, and I always go on the feel in the hand of the individual piece of wood. George Lowden gets redwood from Hank, and as they say if it's good enough for George Lowden..... As I said, it's premium soundboard wood.

Colin

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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:07 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Colin S wrote:
I'm currently building a OOO with redwood top (from Hank Mauel) and Cuban mahogany B&S. It takes a lot to make me build with anything other than Euro spruce! I'm even using redwood burl for the rosette. I don't like the curly type but good straight grained redwood is premium soundboard material.

Attachment:
004.jpg


Colin


That sounds amazing. PLease post photographs & a sound clip when the guitar is finished! I have some QS redwood planks from an 80 year old carpet loom somebody gave me and am looking forward to using it someday.


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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:09 pm 
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Koa
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I've only built one redwood guitar(sinker redwood/cocobolo)but I really liked the sound of it, instead of me describing the tone........here is a review posted by a professional player(Jim Tozier) that test-drove the guitar for me, I thought it might be helpful for you as he is fairly detailed in expressing what he heard. Yes, there are always lots of variables, but I believe the redwood added a unique quality to the tone of this guitar.

Quote:
I had a chance to meet with Greg last week, and he brought along the sinker redwood/cocobolo guitar, as well as the body shell of another guitar he’s working on so that he could explain the unique way he uses carbon fiber bracing to achieve a better sound. (Seeing this made it a lot easier for me to understand than just hearing about it!)

So that you have some context for my comments… I am also strictly fingerstyle, and I have a lighter touch than most players. Because of that, one of the things I look for in a guitar is responsiveness–I want a guitar that will “sing” with minimal effort on my part. If I have to dig in to the guitar a little harder to get to its tonal sweet spot, I won’t be able to play as relaxed and as smoothly as I would like. I also like guitars that have enough overtones and “character” to the sound to work well with slower, emotive phrasing, but enough volume and clarity to handle fast-paced jigs or some of my more groove-oriented original tunes. Finally, because I don’t use a thumbpick, I like rich, full bass notes… but I don’t want them to overpower the melody, so I also need bright, clear trebles. To avoid a slightly muddy sound, I also prefer that the mids are subdued ever so slightly so that those frequencies play more of a supporting role, rather than a “honking,” in-your-face kind of tone. So that’ll give you an idea of what I like my guitars to sound like, ideally.

The Gwaltney guitar delivers ALL of that. In fact, I told Greg after I had a chance to play the sinker/coco 000-13 for a while, that I would rank its tone/sound among the top dozen guitars I’ve ever played–which includes several examples from builders like Kevin Ryan, James Olson, and many other well-established luthiers. The sound of this guitar is as good as–if not better–than all of them.

I think Greg’s design–with the cantilevered fretboard and the carbon bracing (and he can explain much better than I ever could how these features work)–plays a big part in why the guitar is so lively and responsive. The top is less restricted than in a conventional design, and I think it’s really easy to hear the difference in the way it resonates. The first thing I noticed when I played the guitar was how nice the bass sounded, and how easy it was to coax big notes out of the guitar. In many guitars with this kind of bass response, the treble strings can be overpowered–but not so on the Gwaltney. I found it very easy to achieve a nice balance, with the bass notes supporting the melody. What I really liked about this was how full the bass sounded, and how much sustain the notes had; they really filled the bottom end out so that the melody always had support.

Obviously, tone and sound are very subjective… and what is ideal for one player may not work all that well for another. That’s why I tried to give you an idea of what I look for. If your style is similar, I can’t imagine that you won’t absolutely love the sound of this guitar. If you play with a thumbpick and tend to play rather aggressively, or if you like that honking mid-range kind of sound, I still think you’ll like the guitar–it just might not “blow you away” the same way it did for me. It’s hard to say, though… I didn’t try it with a thumbpick and a really aggressive style, so it’s always possible it could sound even better that way!

To give you another idea of how much I liked the sound of this guitar… as a result of the “test drive,” I’m now having Greg build a guitar for me! Honestly, I would love to own this guitar… and I can’t imagine that you won’t be just as thrilled with it.


Image

Cheers,
Greg

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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:09 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Zach buddy here is what Al Carruth said about LS RW in another thread:

"'LS' stands for 'Lucky Strike'. The late Craig Carter was cutting redwood stumps, and came across one that was particularly good, so that's what he called it. The best tops from that log have reasonably fine, even grain, are very stiff, fairly light, and have remarkable low damping. They ring forever when tapped. They also don't have the sort of 'dirty' look that much redwood has, which is nice."


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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:10 pm 
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Redwood is great, but if you're looking for a fingerstyle/bluesy guitar, you might want to consider mahogany for the b&s instead of cocobolo. Right Colin?

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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:38 pm 
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I would not do redwood on cocobolo only because that is too much red for me.
I did a redwood on bubinga and it was just too much red for my tastes.
I'd probably to cedar instead. If you want to do redwood, you might think about putting it on something else like EI rosewood, ziricote or anything that is no so red.

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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:03 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Redwood tops do draw the eye, at least mine, and they can be a lot of red as Steve indicated.

The one on the right below is RW/EIRW in an attempt to play down the rest of the guitar because of the curly RW top and head stock inlay. Not sure if it ended up gaudy anyway..... We live and learn.....

Attachment:
DSC00025rr.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:10 pm 
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mffinla wrote:
I'm coming up to my next build and am trying to decide what top to build with.

My first is a EIR/Adirondack OM. My next will (most likely) be a cocobolo & something OM . I'd like to build a guitar with a warmer tone than my first for fingerstyle playing. (I love the first, but it can be almost jangly & raw in the trebles. Great for the blues.) I'm leaning toward redwood cause I've heard it can have a better base response than cedar...don't know if that's wrong.

Would redwood (probably) give me that warm tone I'm looking for?

Also, is there (generally) a difference in tone between curly redwood & straight grain?

Thanks for your help.


There is no wood out there that I know of that will garrantee you that warm tone you are looking for!!
It is up to you the builder to get the tone you are looking for, however redwood certainly has the possibility perhaps more so than a lot of other woods. Not knowing your build style though, and considering that most people overbuild their first few instruments, it is very easy to miss the mark in which case it will probably just not have the response you had hoped for and maybe not the warmth either. I would recommend using straight grained wood such as that Colin describes. The difference between straight and figured is structural which will certainly determine the tone. In reading the tone description of your first guitar it does sound to me like it was overbuilt so learn from that and build lighter this time.

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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:42 pm 
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I don`t care what anyone says I love my curly Redwood guitar.looks and sounds sooooooooo good.
James W B


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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:16 pm 
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Koa
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Oh man, I don't know, I think redwood and coco is a fabulous looking combo... And the sound is to die for.

GG

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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:42 pm 
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Koa
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Here's my Lowden S-25x, EIR back and sides with LS redwood top. I ordered it from George when we were in N. Ireland for our wedding/honeymoon last year. I got to go visit him in Downpatrick again about a month ago when my wife and I traveled to N. Ireland and Scotland.

Image

It's wonderful for fingerstyle, but for strumming I had to rethink how I play as it's rich sound can quickly get muddy when strumming chords too vigorously ... I'm too used to banging out the chords on my little mahogany Martin 00-18.

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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:14 pm 
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Koa
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fmorelli wrote:
Jonathan, what pickup system are you running in the Lowden?

Filippo


It's the Fishman Ellipse Matrix Blend, it has the controls just inside the soundhole and a little boom mic that mixes with the undersaddle pickup. I have trouble getting the mic volume balanced with the pickup output, the pickup's a whole lot hotter. I haven't spent a whole lot of time messing with it, though. Overall I'm happy with it. If all I had was the UST, I'd still be very satisfied.

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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:07 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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There are some very beautiful guitars in this thread. Greg, I don't think I have seen your guitars before, they are stunning!!!

And the Lowden...well, everyone knows what I think about Lowdens....

Redwood is an excellent choice for topwood- of all the hundreds of guitars I have played over the last 20 years, over in the UK you don't come across them often....


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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:11 am 
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Koa
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Quote:
Greg, I don't think I have seen your guitars before, they are stunning!!!


Hey, thanks Sam!

Cheers,
Greg

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 Post subject: Re: redwood - opinions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:06 am 
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Cocobolo
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Greg,

I've been drooling over that redwood/cocobolo you built ever since you posted its pictures in a another thread. It's stunning.

And to everyone in general. Thanks again for all your input on this thread. A final question.

Anyone know where I can get redwood burl for rosettes?

Thanks.


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