I created a monster. My sticks are .5mm. None of the veneer is that thin. If they are larger than that the pixellation(Is that a word?) is too large!
I guess the only way to find out is to try. It's just a lot of work, if the answer is out there.
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| Fiber for Rosette Tiles? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=18320 |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Fiber for Rosette Tiles? |
Anyone ever use the fiber for rosette tiles? It would save a lot of veneer sanding, but I don't want to use it unless I'll get decent results. In my case I am only using black and off white, at least, so far. I suppose, at some point, I might try other colors. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fiber for Rosette Tiles? |
Since no one else stepped in I will. If needing pretty small sticks for your mosaic (.02-.04) I assume it could work (fiber sheet/fish paper) but I might be a bit concerned on the percentage of swelling due to glue absorption if using Titebond or other white glue to glue your carefully planed out bundles But then again I am no Classical mosaic rosette maker by any means |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fiber for Rosette Tiles? |
That's what I was wondering, if it would swell worse than veneer. The other thing is whether it would look right. I have some, but have never used it. |
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| Author: | Marc [ Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fiber for Rosette Tiles? |
Waddy, I haven't used fiber so I can't help in that area. I assume when you refer to sanding you are cutting your own veneers then sanding to the proper thickness--been there, lots of work. I bought a wixy digital fence attachment for my table saw, I can now slice 1mm on left side of my blade accurately, ususally no sanding. I've also made logs with the lmii rosette sticks (never used them on a guitar though), they are very easy to use and accurate, they have several sizes of black and white but I don't know if they have the size you need for your mosaic, I can't tell from your avatar what size elements you have. If you are using .5mm, you could always buy a large sheet of maple and macasser ebony veneer from veneersupplies.com--nice consistent thickness in my experience, the ebony is fragile to work with though. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fiber for Rosette Tiles? |
I created a monster. My sticks are .5mm. None of the veneer is that thin. If they are larger than that the pixellation(Is that a word?) is too large! I guess the only way to find out is to try. It's just a lot of work, if the answer is out there.
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| Author: | Marc [ Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fiber for Rosette Tiles? |
Waddy, why not recalculate using .6mm/.023" standard veneer. Adjust circumference easy under the fingerboard. The height change in the tile would be less than a mm for a 9-10 mm tall tile, adjust with purf stripes. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fiber for Rosette Tiles? |
It gets pretty big on my tiles. They are 16 strips high and 11 wide for a half tile. I use them back to back to make a full tile. The difference in thickness would make the tiles almost 2 mm higher. Too much tile, not enough purfling. Most of the veneer I have been getting is thicker than .6 mm, cloesr to .7, and not very consistent. I think I'm going to try a log from the fiber and see what happens. If I don't have to do any sanding, it won't take long to do it. |
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| Author: | Marc [ Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fiber for Rosette Tiles? |
Oops, my math was off, I was thinking in terms of my tiles which are only 8 strips 1mm tall, in which case .1mm change is not a problem. 16 strips with an extra .1mm--that's a bunch, I get it now. You would have to find a way to remove 2 or 3 strips to 14 or 13 for a comparable height. The fiber will probably look really good, more contrast between black and white and very consistent thickness, and it should be easy to work with. Look forward to seeing the results. |
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| Author: | Shawn [ Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fiber for Rosette Tiles? |
I have tried the fiber for lines within a rosette but not within a tile and in the end scraped the idea. First, and this is the main reason why I would not use fiber within a rosette is that the fiber is great stuff and the color does not fade...that is the problem for me. It will remain black, white or off white but will no change over time as the rest of the wood based elements of the rosettes would. I like the idea of fiber and would still not hesitate to use it as a line for a binding/purfling. I like that it is non-directional and the color is consistent if used discreetly. As to how to get such a fine line in a rosette tile... There are only two good approaches I have found...scraping the veneer or creating the line using a plane shaving. In one of the GAL Red Books is pictured a great design for a scraper for thinning strips in which a strip is pulled between a plane blade and a fixed block so that the wood is scraped down to thickness. to keep more fragile woods from breaking when that thin you would tape the strip on each end against a wood backer to support it was it is being pulled through the plane blade that is used as a scraper. I think a jig like that is shown in one of the books on classical guitar building but dont remember which book. Next for creating a line using a plane shaving, this is something that I learned from Jose Romanillos when asking how he got such thin lines in his tiles. He mentioned that he has used the scraper approach I described above but the cooler way is to set a plane so it cuts finely and consistently and then plane off shavings that are the right thickness. It sounds very difficult but here is the trick. The wood has to be a species that is very straight grained and consistent. It is also easier to use wood that is green with a high moisture content as it is easier to plane. The majority of the fine lines that Jose used in his guitars can be traced back to a time when a neighbor had just taken down a willow tree. That was during the time when Jose and his family were renting a house that was on Julian Bream's estate. Jose is very resourceful so he asked the neighbor if he could have some of the wood and could he cut a section of the trunk into a length of at least one meter. The neighbor agreed and Jose then took that piece, split it ito wedges and put them in water to keep them moist. For the next week he and his son Liam planed thin strips that were about .1 mm that were about 60mm wide (the planes width). These strips were hung up with a clothes pin to dry and supplied thin lines for many of Jose's famous guitars. Liam said that even today if he needs some more strips and doesnt have what he needs he will get a piece of wood and soak for a few days it so it is easier to work and then planes paper thin strips as needed. Because most black elements in rosettes are dyed, the species of wood used is not critical as long as it is straight grained enough to plane well. I originally thought I could shortcut the process by using fiber for rosette elements but in the end have decided that the other alternatives are scraping down to thickness or planing. I believe that Joshua French uses the scraping approach when he is making fine lines for his work and may have a picture of his scraper setup on his site. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fiber for Rosette Tiles? |
Hi Waddy, The current standard veneer sizes certainly do limit one, .3 and .6 mm work well for some designs and not others. There is a supplier in N.H. called Euphonon which sells wood lines (B&W) in .5mm though it seems to me that having to work with these to make a rosette would be inconvenient to say the least. I have not used fiber in rosettes (or really anywhere else) at this point because I'm after the look of natural wood. I would be concerned about the material (most especially the white) wicking up color from the surrounding material and loosing it's clarity. Natural wood, especially if used with the grain parallel to the surface, can provide some very nice effects once the finish is applied. My only concession to dyed wood is that I have used some black in place of ebony as it is quite brittle and difficult to cut into purflings, though I've found E.I. rosewood strips give a very similar effect. Looking at your design, I suggest you might try a constructed log, made up of shapes cut on a saw along with sawn veneer. This will eliminate the need for the use of rosette sticks and if you use parallel grain for the white, give you a nice sharp result. Work the design out carefully on graph paper first and see if you can get the visual results you want with a combination of simple shapes in ebony (or rosewood) and maple. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fiber for Rosette Tiles? |
Thanks, Shawn, and David. What great advice you guys have! How would we get along without you? I appreciate knowing that fiber may not be a good element for tiles. Shawn, I believe I remember seeing a picture of Joshua's scraping jig. I'll have to try that, but I have always wondered how, since this stuff gets so fragile at the .5mm thickness and thinner. David, your idea is a good one too. Maybe I can come up with a design that would work with more solid sticks. I have never tried that, but certainly willing to. Glad you guys are around to help a struggling builder. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fiber for Rosette Tiles? |
Attachment: Waddy.jpg Waddy, Here is a sketch of my suggested approach. You can see that the white veneer can be laminated to the darker wood and cut as part of the simple shapes (triangles etc.). It also looks like you might be able to simplify your job with just a few standard sizes.....the "house" shaped piece in the upper part could also be made up of a rectangle and triangle to simplify. It does require a lot of accuracy to make and assemble these fine shapes....watch your fingers! I use my little proxxon table saw which it great for this sort of thing....... Best http://www.guitarsbydavidlaplante.com/ |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fiber for Rosette Tiles? |
Thank you, David. What a cool thing you did for me. ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") It is a great design. I will give that a try. No reason that it shouldn't work. I would save a lot of time, over sanding 190 strips of veneer to .5mm, which is what I did last time. I forgot to thickness before cutting into 6" pieces. Not too bright.  ![[headinwall]](./images/smilies/headbangwalluf8.gif "Mad")
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