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Luthiers and the internet.
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Author:  Sam Price [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:39 am ]
Post subject:  Luthiers and the internet.
There has been something preying on my mind the last few days, and I hope you will not find this post offensive, or causing trouble in any way- a thread on another forum has disturbed me somewhat. Lance, Brock, if you feel this might cause trouble, please delete.


A customer had a guitar built to specification, and had minor issues relating to fit & finish, and other issues regarding the time the build took. Because of his frustration, he decided to start a thread on this guitar forum, and people very quickly found out who the luthier was.

Now this luthier started off being an apprentice, soon becoming a successful builder with many satisfied customers; according to my awareness from using guitar forums, over some years, he had built up a good reputation on the internet and otherwise.

One negative thread could potentially destroy his reputation and his business overnight. To me, that is incredibly disturbing, as when I feel I am ready, I may start selling my own guitars some years/builds down the line.

Does this bother anyone else? It seems the amount of hassle you get from customers doesn't equate to the meagre "salary" gleaned from guitar building; and sometimes it feels that public forums can be used as virtual blackmail to get the luthier to satisfy the customer's whim.

Understandably, if the luthier consistently makes guitars that don't reflect the true value, then truth will out.

But I feel the internet can be used for great good for luthiers....and for bad, too.

Thanks for reading this, and I would appreciate your thoughts.
Author:  Martin Turner [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
If the customer vented his frustrations on the forum without first approaching the luthier with the problems then the customer is out of line IMHO.
Author:  curtis [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
good question Sam,
when somone is sat at a keyboard many miles away & under a sudaname, its easy for them to forget their manners in the heat of the moment.
But you hit the nail on the head with the 'truth will out' bit. If someone showed me a hand built I'd make my own mind up.

For me, tone is 100% what its about, and if someone (we've all had customers like it) is ultra picky about details that can't be avoided then it will most likely just make anyone else think one thing:
"that bloke's an 4rs3hole!"

I wouldn't like someone to say anything bad about me on t'internet, I'd hate it infact, but you can just tell the type of peope that run someone else down like that are just that "type" of person, they probably do it all the time.
I'm confident in myself, and my customers seem to like my service but if i ever read/ heard of someone slagging me off i'd be pretty peeved - I try hard to do the best for my customers, and if even one of them felt they couldn't come back to me with something they wanted changed I'd be gutted. To be honest I think I'd just want to get in contact with them to reslove any issue for free.

I've heard tons of horror stories about a couple of repair guys around here (that aren't in the trade anymore) by people that worked with them daily, but i would never tell a customer, not ever.

So, no, I don't think it would harm somebody who's good, but it would hurt like hell!

My mother always told me 'if you haven't got anything good to say about someone, say nothing'

Sam Price wrote:
Understandably, if the luthier consistently makes guitars that don't reflect the true value, then truth will out.



indeed!
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
I have been following that thread too. Still don't know who it is, but that's probably because I'm not up on all the builders, like some of those
aficionados are. Truth is, IMO, that based on the pictures, this person is right to be upset. Whether it should have been posted is something else, particularly on a forum where all the talk is about what I ordered today, and here is my guitar in process, and I can't wait to get my xxxxx guitar. Apparently this person has been to the wall with this luthier, and has not been assured that things will be satisfactorily reconciled. In his original statement, I noticed that he sent the wood to the luthier. My first thought was, that that was a big mistake. The luthier is then stuck with working with that wood, outcome be darned. Not saying that was the cause of the problem, but limited the outs that the luthier had. All that said, however, if the luthier said he could do something, then he should do it, there are no excuses. If you can't perform, give back the money, and if you can't perform on a regular basis, get out of the business. It is the way things work in a free market.

I think you are right, though, Sam. It certainly is easy to trash someones credibility on the internet, and short of the pictures, it could have been suspect. I assumed that those were only a couple of the issues with the instrument.
Author:  George L [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
I believe the customer should always allow the builder and/or seller an opportunity to resolve any such issues before taking a dispute public. That said, the power of the Internet works both ways. While it creates a towering soap box from which disgruntled customers may shout their complaints, it also opens the debate to countless others who can counter such claims. That's when the truth will out. Luthiers must work vigilantly to protect their reputations, but, given enough information, reasonable people can usually spot unreasonable expectations or behavior.

I guess that's my long way of saying that, in my opinion, the benefits of the Internet outweigh the detriments.

George :-)
Author:  SimonF [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
Actually, I agreed with the poster about that situation. I have seen a couple guitars by this builder and both of those guitars had some very noticeable cosmetic issues. The finish work and setup had flaws (tearout at the rosette and binding, binding gaps, very bad setup with the nut and saddle not fitting properly, finish issues, etc...). But there is a reason for that - I think he is trying to build too many guitars and can't dedicate enough time to the details. The tone of his instruments however, is excellent. So he recently became very popular because of his very accessible base price.

The problem is that customers don't care how little he is probably making on his guitars. If you spend $2500 for a guitar, you expect it to be nicer than an equivalent highend Taylor or Martin. The reality is a fair percentage of builders are not building at the quality level Taylor is despite probably having a far superior tone. As players become more savvy from the internet about build quality, I believe this may become an issue for some of the lutherie community.

My advice is don't let anything out of your shop that isn't of EXCEPTIONAL build quality. If you aren't at that level yet, then you need to refine your build process and you don't need to be selling your guitars for profit - it will come back to hurt you in the end. Of course, that advice is coming from the perspective that you want to build a strong reputation and make money as a luthier. And lastly, treat the customer right, even if that means taking on a financial burden. Always go beyond what is required and show integrity and character.
Author:  jhowell [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
Not having followed the mentioned thread, I hesitate to comment, but in general...

The buyer should exhaust all avenues before going public with a 'slam'. Moderated forums, IMHO, should have a very low tolerance for this type of post under the best (Worst?) of circumstances. In this regard, I find the OLF to be pretty good about self-policing by the membership. If I were building for sale, I'm pretty sure that I would be agreeing with Waddy in that I wouldn't use the buyer's wood.

There are a lot of good things about the internet, but one needs to understand that most things posted are just opinions and they are only as good as the data or experience behind them -- in many cases, there is none of either! The impersonalization also lends itself to um, ... well, coarse deportment on occasion. I think that it is also fair to say that the art of critical thinking has been nearly lost upon not only the public, but also the private school systems which can lead to a population being more easily manipulated by myth than reason. --a personal rant! ;) So, anywho... concerning the internet along with the good comes the weird. :)
Author:  Flori F. [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
Anyone willing to pm me the link?
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
Sam Price wrote:
One negative thread could potentially destroy his reputation and his business overnight. To me, that is incredibly disturbing, as when I feel I am ready, I may start selling my own guitars some years/builds down the line.

Absolutely not, you're making too much out of it. Inevitably even the best, most patient, accommodating builder will have a dissatisfied customer who may, or not, vent on those great venues of anonymity where people don't even have to use their real names: internet forums…
I am sure satisfied customers do not take this very seriously, nor those who would love to own a guitar by this builder as I am sure they exist somewhere.
The most important factor is: how does the guitar play and sound?
Some builders have great reputation for tone and setup, while craftsmanship leaves to be desired. The opposite is certainly true.
Excelling at both seems ideal, if rare.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
wrote:
For me, tone is 100% what its about, and if someone (we've all had customers like it) is ultra picky about details that can't be avoided then it will most likely just make anyone else think one thing:
"that bloke's an 4rs3hole!"


No offense intended, but if that is how you feel about it, then you should be building spec guitars, not commissions. Let people see the guitar for what it is and choose to buy it (or not) for its strengths and weaknesses.

I think for commissions you better be doing as good a job as is humanly possible. When you send out work that is full of flaws (cosmetic or structural) not only are you inviting negative press on YOUR work, but it also reflects bad on the industry.

You simply can't say that "my guitars are in the $X,XXX price range and that is what people should expect." (which I have heard many times from folks who know their work has some "problems"). IMO the work is a statement of YOU. In my book it is inexcusable to send work that looks like that to a client. I think the customer had every right to let the community know. Clients save for a long time to buy our guitars, and this might keep someone else from making such a large purchase without knowing what they might be getting.

These were not personal opinion problems like tone or the feel of the neck or anything where there isn't a common standard. These were some fairly significant (and obvious) problems. There is no way he didn't know they were there.

The builder may be a good guy. I have never met him, but I will bet money the next guitars he sends out are much tighter.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
mffinla wrote:
Anyone willing to pm me the link?


It is on the Acoustic Guitar Forum .. the thread is called something like when a commission goes sour... or something like that.
Author:  James Orr [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
I think it's completely ok to give someone negative press. If their work is bad, if a service provider treats you like a jerk, and someone has accepted you're money, it's ok to let others know. I'm in the minority with this opinion and don't understand why. Our sponsors here are great, but sometimes the sponsors of forums receive with the sponsorship a golden halo.

I remember when Don Williams started a thread to let people know a blade supplier had shattered his (Don's) deadline on a project. People raked him over the coals (ironic, eh?) and in no uncertain terms let him know how big of a jerk he was being for not "understanding."

The original posted seemed balanced to me:

Quote:
The quality and workmanship on my guitar was quite stellar in some ways and i was very happy with it. But it other ways it seemed rush, and it wasn't sent out the way a custom $2500 should be.
Author:  stan thomison [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
Looking at the photo's and still no idea of who the builder is, the customer here is right. If went through the contacts and not get a resolution he has not done anything wrong.
I have been in two shops and neither one would have sent it out like that, period!!! I know guitars go out with some minor issues, but not glaring like that. The flaws went out were so minor probably only another builder even if then would notice it. I know some customers are more picky than others but this doesn't seem the case here.

If you think can send work out like that, even with tone and playability and make it, your wrong, go broke waiting for the work to come in. This may be the one guitar in a 100 that was bad, but that bad and not make it right is way to go out of business. Sure tone and all of that maybe most important to most players, but you better have the build looking good also, particularly the basic stuff like a nut that sits right jumps right off the bat.

Bottom line better sound, look and play great and like a pro custom should. Now I am only basing this on the two shops I was at and their expectations of what went out, which has been the biggest inflluence on me.
Author:  Sam Price [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
James Orr wrote:
It's not ok to say something is anything less than incredible on guitar forums. That's part of the culture I've never understood. If something is bad, it's bad. We just can't say that because it's a mark against the culture's chastity.


Good point, James.

The age of the internet has raised the "bar" exponentially in what people expect from a guitar of a certain monetary value. Look at the guitars made in the last ten years and see how quality and variety has exploded. Not only has it become easy for luthiers to pick up new commissions, it is easy for customers to have their way and more.


Unfortunately this thread I have highlighted isn't the only "disgruntled" one I have read over the years; usually these types of threads about different luthiers and a negative experience run into hundreds of posts due to the pack-dog mentality. Only a few thread authors explore every legal possibility before airing laundry. It can be incredibly damaging and rarely edifying.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
I think that you have to take the good with the bad. Internet forums (this one included) are worthless if the opinions expressed cannot be from both sides of an issue.

In our specific case we just want critisism to be based on facts and laid out in a productive manner (not as a club to threaten suppliers with to give you "your way", or to air personal grudges).

The AGF post was about the work, not the man, and he had pictures to back it up. I think that this was the best example of how the internet serves everyone. Now the AGFers think that the forum is not just a big "love in" and the praise is more sweet when it comes.

I think the big "take away" from this is that with the Internet large numbers of people can find out about shoddy work in a flash -- so you better make sure it is clean, and that your customers are happy.
Author:  Sam Price [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
Brock Poling wrote:

I think the big "take away" from this is that with the Internet large numbers of people can find out about shoddy work in a flash -- so you better make sure it is clean, and that your customers are happy.


Definetely. Scary stuff....but with a sharp learning curve....

Not just fit & finish can be reported; but also the type of customer service can be analysed.

For the record, how far are luthiers willing to go to keep their customers happy? Has the internet & customer-to-customer communication changed the way that professional luthiers provide service?
Author:  stan thomison [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
At both shops the "customer care" was while I was there very good. I had little to do with any of that at Dana's, but knowing Carey, John and Roger and Dana, it was a big deal. I do know for certain customers in certain countries, inside the box was a big deal as outside,. Those customers from what heard looked inside the box with mirrors and lights.

I know Bill will go to the wall with his customers and make anything right the customer isn't happy with. I have heard his conversations and how he dealt with them. If it wasn't right in the slightest he had them send it back if not worked out some other way. I was amazed at how some customers will look at every thing down to a thou or 2 in the nut width. Couldn't see it or feel, but customer took caliphers to it. Bill talked to the customer and it was worked out. I mean some can gripe about the most minor thing and just some communication will for most part take care of it. If anyone has made the perfect guitar in every aspect I would like to know. That said, striving for it keeps it right and customers happy. What I seen in this guitar and thread noted wouldn't make it out of shop and I can guarantee the work would have been made right if slipped by, but that wouldn't happen where I worked. Also, if said here boss done and ready for shipment and seen what was sending out, let me say my butt and ego would still be trying to get healed.

Again this may be the only guitar this builder ever sent out like this and all the others were perfect and is a great builder, but it only takes one. Best thing as a builder is not get into an arguement about it and fix it with the customer so doesn't come to this. Used to have a saying in my old business (noted in another thread) most of the time when new folks came around and tried to get the work is ok, give them a try, but my competion in most cases was my best advertisement. Don't think cause there are friendships in lutherie and here, that there isn't competion in this like any business to get the work. There are a lot of folks in the business, but customers, particularly in this time and age are getting fewer. Better not only have the number of builds, they better be very, very good in all aspects.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
Sam Price wrote:
Definetely. Scary stuff....but with a sharp learning curve....

Not just fit & finish can be reported; but also the type of customer service can be analysed.

For the record, how far are luthiers willing to go to keep their customers happy? Has the internet & customer-to-customer communication changed the way that professional luthiers provide service?


The other approach is to sell spec guitars. I think that is just as valid provided you can find a good channel to market for them.
Author:  Steve Saville [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
stan thomison wrote:
Again this may be the only guitar this builder ever sent out like this and all the others were perfect and is a great builder........

The guy who started the thread indicated later in that same thread that he has received enough PM's from forum members to show that it as not an isolated event. I have had 2 phone calls from customers today that anted to talk about that thread. I know who the builders is and I was pretty shocked that anyone would send something like that to a customer.
This is a great warning to all of us. Be very careful what you send out.
Here is that - with 123 posts, 4555 replies and counting, there is a lot of press and the builder has been identified by some one who rep's him.
That guitar should not have left his shop like that.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
This thread on the AGF was pointed out to me by another OLFer this morning and I thank them kindly.

I read the entire thread at that time and it left a bad taste in my mouth....... So..... I have avoided commenting here simply because I think that the entire matter has an ugliness to it.

My position is, knowing what we know now of course which is not and never will be everything, that something is being over looked here. My preference is to give the benefit of the doubt to both the customer and the builder.

I think that there is a high likelihood that the guitar was damaged in shipping. That could explain a popped nut, lifted fret board and the ridges that the customer felt with their finger and mentioned.

The entire transaction should have stopped right there with the assumption that damage had occurred and the guitar should have been sent back at once so that the builder could see this for themselves. But the customer had waited a long time for the delivery of the guitar and even stated that they wanted to keep it and play it for several weeks.

So now they complain about the action which of course would be screwed up with a lifted fret board and popped nut........

Frankly my read is that the customer should have sent it back at once and in not doing so kind of created, unfairly, a situation where they complained about other things too.

Personally I would have never, never publicly outed someone who had made efforts on my behalf. Even if the builder refused to honor a contractual acceptance period that is what lawsuits are for and not the Internet.......

Is the builder blameless? Perhaps not but we never can really get far enough into the real truth here because there remains a possibility that the guitar was damaged by our beloved and uber trustworthy shipping companies.........

I also thought that it was unfortunate to read some of the comments of other builders........ They piled on in some cases without all the facts and again you, I, we can never have all the facts from this forum, the AGF, any forum - we are not there in real time and our information is second hand.

Lastly, at least when I read the thread, the builder had not weighed-in and may not even know that their reputation is getting trashed on a public forum........ We are so very quick to judge with only one side of the story. Even our legal system(s) has/have certain presumptions and affords everyone the opportunity to be represented.........

We have a member here that was trashed on the Internet 10 years ago for a bass that a customer was not happy with. I am not going to mention names because I don't want to contribute to the nightmare that resulted for this builder or help Google perpetuate the crap. But we all know him and many of us, myself included greatly respect this man who is actually one of the icons of the industry.

I agree with Brock that these kinds of things hurt the industry. I'll add that presumptions of guilt won't promote the industry either.......

Most of all it's just unfortunate that it ever happened.
Author:  Steve Saville [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
Hesh,
If there were not others complaining about the same kind of lack of quality, your shipping theory would hold water. I'm sorry, but because of the other complaints, it does not.

BTW - Yesterday I emailed that builder and gave him a link to the thread. I do a lot things things based on if I would want to know. I would want to know if I was being outed on the Internet like that, so I assume others would also. If it ever happens to me, I'd appreciate an email.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
Hesh wrote:
I think that there is a high likelihood that the guitar was damaged in shipping. That could explain a popped nut, lifted fret board and the ridges that the customer felt with their finger and mentioned.


I don't know about that. I realize you are trying to find the middle ground. I think that is admirable, but look at that headstock, the binding channels are cut past where the binding stops there is a huge gap there.

My "problem" with the forums (all forums really) is that there is a tendency for people to heap on the praise even for crappy service and products .. and woe is the person who comes along and speaks the truth. They are usually rounded up, tarred and feathered by the mob. I have seen it here, I have seen it on the AGF, I have seen it on just about every forum I have ever participated in.

As an advertiser I think it is refreshing to see a culture where they are willing to allow opinions on both sides of the isle. Even though it didn't take much detective work to figure out who the builder was in the AGF thread the buyer never openly shared that ... and he could have. I think for a thread that was negative most people were pretty fair. Nobody ever said that he is a bad guy, or even a bad builder, all they said was THAT GUITAR should have never left the shop.... and I agree.

My larger point about hurting the industry is when we "allow" shoddy work to enter the market... it hurts all of us. Buyers of those sub par guitars walk away thinking... "Geesh, is THIS what I get for a $X,XXX custom built guitar?" Not ever realizing that there is better workmanship from most of the others in that price range. I don't think on an individual by individual basis there is much we can do about this, but I think as a group we need to be mindful that we are NOT factories, our job is NOT to produce 50 guitars in a year, but our job IS to build the absolute best guitars we can regardless of the quantity. I just feel like a little piece of your soul goes into every one and when you allow one to slip by that you know has problems you are hurting yourself, the industry, and your customer. Everybody loses.

I am by far my own worst critic. I second guess everything. I fuss and fret over details that are so minor nobody will ever see them... but *** I *** know when things aren't just the way I want them... and it bugs me to the point where I almost can't deal with it. I am hardly alone. I think it is this DRIVE that propels all of us and we have to fiercely hold onto it.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
OK guys I agree with your points and I was just trying to find some middle ground.

I think that we all would agree that this is a shame that it ever happened.

I would ask however, rightly or wrongly, if this thread had been posted here how would it have played out? I think that we even have a rule saying that the forum is not to be used as a platform to express displeasure with a vendor.

With the exception of my friend Don and his lousy plumber if one of us complained about an industry player and it was not difficult to ascertain who the player was I will bet you that someone would have objected to the dirty laundry being aired here. It has happened before many times here on the OLF.

So my suggestion is that in threads where unpleasantness rules the day, even where justified, and when prospective customers are possibly lurking, might not all participants end up getting..... wet?

I have to go dry off now....... :D
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
I can't remember who wrote that political correctness is a form of social Marxism.
Anyway, I've looked at the thread and… what a shame… IMHO it's a good thing to air this kind of stuff as it may help a few builders think about the consequences of rushing things out.
On a personal level and being self-taught, spending some time working at Pantheon as well, as Stan points out, definitely improved my appreciation for flawless fit and finish.
Obviously the whole story is not there, not from the builder's perspective anyway, but what a huge waste of time for both parties…
The devil is in the details, that is what makes the difference between a "handmade" and a "homemade" guitar, as Terence says…
Author:  Pat Foster [ Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiers and the internet.
I read the thread yesterday and again today.

I think the original poster was entirely in line. He had contacted the builder and was not happy with the builder's request to pay for extra customs fees for shipping the guitar back. At no time did the OP reveal the builder's name, and the only hint was that he was outside the US. He was upset and was asking whether he was being reasonable. At least that was my take on his post.

The builder did the right thing in the end by offering a refund, albeit much too late, but I agree with others here that the guitar should never have left his shop in that state. Shipping damage could not have caused the issues shown in the photos, nor the issue with the back. It was on the builder. I just feel badly for him, since this episode will cost him dearly, and for the buyer too, who is now understandably gunshy about commissioning another guitar from a custom builder.

But I too am glad to see such posts that bring to light issues with builders who might send out sub-standard work. It's regrettable, but it happens, and it should be made public in a manner much like was done in this case: not a raging flame that names the builder, but a buyer's request for affirmation of his disappointment and frustration with a builder who was not conducting his business in top form.

Just my two cents.

Pat
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