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Looking for some info on wood. http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=18548	Page 1 of 1

Author:	ganeshaa [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:26 am ]
Post subject:	Looking for some info on wood.
Hey guys am researching some before my first build. Just ordered Cumpiano's book and am looking up info on tonewood available here in India. Since itll take some time for the book to be shipped to me i guess i have time to learn about raw material and tools. Hve done a decent bit of internet research already. I have no prior woddworking experience but am an avid hoobyist. So heres a list of somewhat commonly found wood here in India and since there arent any specialist tonewood suppliers. Except a few who deal mostly in rosewood, mahogany and ebony but not any good top wood. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_In ... mber_trees Id appreciate it if u guys could help me idntify (out of the available woods) which types could i experiment with for different parts of the guitar. I have somewht of an Idea but am sure theres much more to know from the experienced hands here. Id appreciate any help info on wht wood from the above available in India i could use to make tops, backs, necks, etc etc. I also have a whole bunch of pinewood from older furniture in fairly good condition with dimensions of approx 20"x1"x0.5" and was wondering wether i can use them for bracings or any other parts in constructing classical guitars or put them to good use somehow as it would be a pity to waste them. In about 3 months or so im moving into a new house where ill have space to setup a home recording studio for myself and a small workshed where i can build instruments. Im interested in working as a hobbyist initially on Didgeridoos (which ive made a few of), Cajons, Ethnic Percussion Insts and i want to have a small dedicated space for Building guitars. and for that i wanna do as much as i can from scratch. Labour is fairly cheap so things like getting wood blocks stripped of bark and getting them sawed to boards should not be a problem. But other than that i want to work mostly on my own treating the wood and getting it ready for building, using hand tools and natural methods preferably (For which cumiano's "guitarmaking" ive heard is the ideal resource-and so i hope). Looking forward to whtever i can learn. Thanks and cheers, Ankit

Author:	wbergman [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
There are quite a few factories near India, in Japan, China, and SE Asia. There must be sources where they get top wood at a fair price. You might try contacting them for advice.

Author:	Jim Kirby [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
Ankit - I don't know too many of the woods on your list- you will end up educating us I'm sure! Indian Rosewood is the main rosewood of choice, of course, due to availability, cost and reasonably uniform quality. You can find a number of specialist vendors for instrument woods located in southern India (some around Puna that I know of). You may be able to come across instrument-sized bits of satinwood or ebony as an alternate. I've seen Toona - it's a little like mahogany in appearance but I don't know if this extends to a completed instrument. Your chart says that spruce is available. That would be what to look for for tops and bracewood. I assume this is from the Himalaya's? I don't know if it's the same as the Picea orientalis (Caucasian spruce or oriental spruce) that grows from Turkey through Russia, or the variants of P. Abies (Norway spruce) that grows in Siberia, or what. It's probably usual. Regarding the previous post, I think the Chinese factories get their spruce from Alaska, mainly.

Author:	Jim Kirby [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
Also from your list, check out Babul. it's an Acacia, which usually fits the bill for backs and sides (Koa, Tasmanian Blackwood, ...)

Author:	ganeshaa [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
Thanks for that Kirby. Well im not looking at doing this professionally or producing on a large scale so i think shipping from outside the country is not an option. I have an uncle whose owns a building company and they get a lot of wood of different types for construction and other stuff at their sites. So i know that i can source some wood from there and i know for sure they get large supplies of pine (Which ive hearded ppl have used in the past for topwood- wht are your thoughts on this ?) but im sure theres a variety of different woods available at the building sites i could chose from. I know that spruce has been growin In India for many years but i dont think that there arel umbers dealing in it as most of the spruce gorws around the border and theres a lot of political distubance in the area. And i dont think the gov allows too much lumbering as most timber is imported into India. There are also suppliers for rosewood backs and fretboards and necks here In calcutta. Infact theres a person who has an office a cpl of blocks from whre i stay . He says he ships outside the country on bulk mostly bu i reasoned with him saying id just need a few peices and he said hed see wht he can do. But my main concern is still topwood and from wht ive found out there is a decent availability of Toon wood(Toona ciliata) available here in calcutta. Is it a variety of cedar and is it good for tops ? So yea im still hoping to know if there are those and any other woods i can chose from the list i mentioned in the first post for tops and also if i can use the mentioned peices of pine i have(20"x1"x0.5") left over for bracings and lining ??? Thank you everyone

Author:	douglas ingram [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
If you are interested in classical guitars, I'd highly recommend Roy Courtnall's book "Making Master Guitars". As much as Cumpiano's book has useful information, the Courtnall book is more focused on classical guitar, and still focuses on using hand tools. This is a great book, I highly recommend it. Many woods can be used well, but you'll have to experiment some, and expect some differences from "classic" classical guitars. The norms for those instruments have become well established. different materials will yield different results. That's OK as long as your expectations accept them. Pine will work for many of the interior parts as long as you exercise the same care in preparing the material as you wood any other brace wood. One other issue that you may need to consider. I've read posts from classical guitarists in India who are very concerned about a finish that will stand up to the high humidity and temperatures. Good luck and enjoy the process!

Author:	wbergman [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
Some old stardard sources here in the USA for good spruce, before the specialty luthier supply dealers opened, are boat repair yards and small airplane repair yards. They use spruce for their work, and often will sell a board. Maybe you can find a similar source in India.

Author:	ganeshaa [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
Thanks for that Bergman. I think thats a great idea. Also since u mention aircrafts and the fact that spruce was used to make a lot of aircrafts earlier on i just though about balsa which was also a very popular wood used to build extremely light aircrafts. Its apparently the lightest and softest of woods and still quite strong. Do any of u have any opinion on this as i think its avery readily available wood. Im gonna look that up too unless someone thinks its a waste of time ? Peace

Author:	douglas ingram [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
Balsa is very light weight, but also very soft and lacks stiffness. Its the weight:stiffness ratio that you want. Low weight: high stiffness.

Author:	Chris Paulick [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
Here's a lengthy discussion which you can learn alot about brace wood from like I did. Well worth the read. http://mimf.com/cgi-bin/WebX?128@175.CD ... @.2cb67fcd

Author:	Dean [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
Deodar is a cedar that should make a good top wood. Where I lived as a child we had many of these trees. Definitely large enough when mature to supply tops. It is a beautiful wood. If properly prepared it might turn out to be a real keeper.

Author:	Allen McFarlen [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
I've built a couple of guitars with Australian Red Cedar tops (Toonis Australis). It makes a beautiful top, and from the description on your list, the Indian Toonis sound to be quite similar. There are pictures on my website of these guitars if you want to see what it looks like.

Author:	Jim Kirby [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
I was clearly confused over my toons. I was thinking of the Indonesian toon which is more of a mahogany look alike. The Indian toon is more of a cedar?

Author:	ganeshaa [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
Thanks a ton guys. This is great! this was definately the kind of info i was hoping to get. Im sure i can source some of the different types of wood. Ill see wht i can get to start with first. From wht ive read toon (Toona Ciliata) is the same as Australian Red Cedar, Suren or Indian Mahogany . And deodar im expecting should be somewht readily available here. Another question i had was wht dimensions should i get my wood in when i get it from the timber suppliers and wht thicknes and dimensions i should get the boards sawed in and also wht would be the most basic procedure to store them (period of time, room condition etc ) and season them so they are ready to be used. Thanks guys. This has all been highly educating for me. I should idealy like to start the main construction on my first guitar about 3 - 4 months from now. Is that a good enough time for the wood to be ready and used to the climate? Cheers everyone Ankit PS - those are some beautiful guitars @ amcfarlen . Saw the one with the red cedar top. Looks absolutely stunning. I think im gonna look for some good quality toon to store atleast if not to work with it on my first .

Author:	Allen McFarlen [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
Thanks Ankit. Toonis Australis isn't suitable as brace wood. You'll still need to source something suitable for that. Both guitars I've built with it have used Red Spruce bracing. The tops started out at 3 mm thick and were graduated down around the perimeter in the lower bout to approximately 2.5 mm.

Author:	ganeshaa [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
Well yesterday was the first disheartening experience i had as i went to some wood suppliers at the local market here and there is mostly a local market where i stay and i came back empty handed cause i couldnt find any of the wood i shortlisted for tonewood (Namely Toon or red cedar, Deodar cedrus and rosewood which are usually fairly easily available.) But i did come across a cpl of species of wood i found interesting, although im not the one here with experience. There was this one wood called "kapur" [Dryobalanops lanceolata] which aftr reading up a bit i found out is a hardwood but i wanted an opinion here wether u guys think its workable a topwood. Im putting up a link which has some info on the species http://www.windsorplywood.com/tropical_woods/kapur.html This is an available wood and id like to know wether i should try working on my first instrument with these. I love the color of the wood though. (A beautiful reddish shade) will need to find something for the back and sides and the fingerboard. SO lets see wht i can come up with. Thanks again

Author:	Billy T [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
Any wood may be a workable topwood but that's where it ends. Spruce, cedar, redwood, koa, bunya, king billy are used because the properties are understood in commonality. Could be you could use any wood but who knows how it will work without a lot of experimentation. This wood sounds like it would make a much better, neck, back and side wood too me, though I have no experience with it. I don't know what shipping is like to India but Shane Niefer from High Mountain tonewood can gt you a top for about $10.00 American. Again, I don't know what your exchange situation is like. That could be expensive in your country. If you have more time maybe you can work one of your common woods into a good top and teach us!

Author:	ganeshaa [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
Ok . here it is. Im gonna try doing this. I managed to get about 3 boards (bookmached myself:P) Indian Pine from assam. Got it really really cheap rough sawed down to nearly 4 mm (still looks thick to me and ive kept it under the fan to dry) . I know its probably not the best wood with not the closest grain arrangement but i like how it looks . The guy i bought it from has promised to get me a good variety of narrow grained pine in a cpl of days. SO ive heard ppl use pine in the past on tops and i guess im gonna see how this works. Does any1 think i shudnt or shud i go ahead since its my first. And yea since its rough sawn and has to be leveled and finished do i do that before joining or after and should i use scrapers or plane and sandpaper. lol. i dunno wht im doing exactly but i think im gonna do it still. Thank you all for bearing with me, ANkit

Author:	Jim Kirby [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
Ankit - If your wood is newly sawn, you want to let it sit and adjust to your home climate for a while. As far as climate goes, how big a swing in humidity do you have with seasons there? If it is huge, you either need to have some control over it in your building space, or build at times of the year when the humidity is lowest. Guitars do not like to get built when the humidity is high and then sit through dry seasons. The drying out of the instrument can cause cracks and splits, and changes in body shape (mainly depression of the back) Pine should work fine.

Author:	ganeshaa [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Looking for some info on wood.
Hey JIm, Their isnt too much of a swing really as where i stay is usually at high humidity thorughout the year though in winters it is comparitively less. Though i plan on keeping the wood in my room under the fan and with the airconditioning on on a dry setting that my Ac unit has. I think tht might hlp. aso i just figured that from my first purchase at the lumber yard and not knowing enough i got wood which was actually flat sawn. Though i think now i can differentiate by looking at the end grain. Though is flat sawn ok for tops ?? I know ill definately need to get well quarter sawn wood for th necks and sides and the bracing . but can flat sawn work for the tops and backs. Im sure ill remember next time though to try and always get quarter sawn wood. Thank you Peace Ps at the moment im starting in a well restricted (my bedroom) area so this is the case and i hope it works but once i move into my new house in about 3months im setting up a small work area which i think i will get controlled for humidity.

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