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forget the supersoft
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=18591		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  JohnR [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  forget the supersoft
I love Koa but hate to bend a cut-a-way. I built a light bulb bender, but the Koa still cracked. So I tried supersoft prior to bending. It makes the Koa fuzzy and did not help in crack prevention. gaah
So I spent last Saturday in Hegins PA with John and Brenda Hall of Blues Creek Guitars. What great people. John showed me how to use his bending blanket on my fox bender. Without using supersoft the sides bent like butter and without a crack. bliss
Bending is now a pleasure. So I will now need to find a new use for my electric bending pipe.
John
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
I'm happy for your success and determination that heat is necessary for bending koa or any other wood. John has bailed many of us out of similar problems. As far as your SS2 conclusion, it sounds like a logic disconnect to me.

Supersoft without sufficient heat will not make wood bend...but it has and will continue to be an important part of my bending regimen along with using enough heat. Many of us discovered the importance of heat a long before we discovered the benefit of SS2.

The nature of your post suggests that you don't fully understand how to use the product nor even the theory behind bending wood. Rather than jump to unsubstantiated conclusions, all you need to do is ask. To do otherwise is to promote misinformation about the product.

So I conclude from the evidence that you stated is that blankets are better than bulbs. Even better information would have been to compare the temperature of the failed method over that of the successful method.
Author:  Billy T [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
What did John Hall tell you John?
Author:  JohnR [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
Billy
I had been using three 100 watt bulbs to heat my fox bender. John showed me how to use a aluminum slat placed on top of the koa on which is placed his heating blanket. Heat is evenly distributed through the aluminum into the wood, in addition the moment of force is evenly distributed instead of directly at the most acute point in the bend. The photos are of John Hall in action showing how to use his blanket.
I found the supersoft made the koa less tonal to tapping. At least to my ear. The photos show the orange heating blanket on top of the slat. The blanket gets bent along with the sandwich of aluminum and koa
John
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
Good chance you weren't getting enough heat with 100 watt bulbs. From what I have read, on most forums, and that's a good bit, most folks using bulbs are using three 200 watt bulbs to get enough heat. You were short by half.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
Tone and SS2?...that's a new one!

<sigh>
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
You weren't using those Al Gore light bulbs were you?

I agree with the others that bulbs just cannot compare to a blanket and for the really tough jobs, or as just some cheap insurance, SSII works great.
Author:  bluescreek [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
I will admit that I have never used SS. I have been bending wood for about 8 years. Last year I only bent 323 sets. In the last 4 years I lost 3 sets. 2 high figured maple and one that I broke when someone dropped a drill on a $1500 set of BRW. The key to all bending is the right heat and moisture. The most challenging wood that I bent was waterfall Bubinga and some wild figured blood wood. They bent with some challenge. The Bubinga I take to 400 and kept it pressed untill it was well dried and cool.
Paduk also likes a lot of heat. Snake wood also bends easy and watch that for scorching. The challenges of bending can be trying.
john hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized Martin repair center
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
John...My most difficult was also WFB. I always profile the sides before bending and bent one side with SS2 the wrong way...D'oh!!!

So I had to straighten it out and re-bend it in the opposite direction using bulbs AND blanket. I had absolutely no problem with the bend using SS. And I have never had to raise the temp beyond 320*F with any wood so far. Needless to say...I'm definitely sold on the product after using it for 6 builds...and never have I seen any negative effect on tone! gaah

BTW, John...you played that same guitar (Tippie) last time we were together!
Author:  bluescreek [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
I got the pic of that on my phone JJ. Come on in and we will get Brenda to make you an apple pie. Use what works for you. There are more than 1 way to do things. I found you can unbend sides twice . Please don't ask LOL
John Hall
Martin Repair Center
Author:  Billy T [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
JohnR wrote:
I found the supersoft made the koa less tonal to tapping. At least to my ear.


Well, If it softening it for bending that would probably be true, but it's reported to go away too!

I've never used the stuff but this is really the first time Ive ever heard any bad reports about SS2.

You didn't have a thermometer on the 100 watt bulb bender did you? The way Blues Creek John Hall showed you is pretty much the standard anymore, as I've seen. Just a heck of a lot easier and safer.
Author:  stan thomison [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
I use John's benders. I first had one with bulbs for about 2 years. Used 2 150 and 1 200 bulb all 3 at 200 was a little much and scorched the sides of bender and forms. Never used the super soft stuff so can't talk about that, but don't think that in time would effect tone. Kind of like saying get different tone with type of wood used for cap on X brace (which is a comment heard more than once) If not get good results with the bulbs use same bender, and get a blanket.
Author:  KenH [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
I bend EVERYTHING I bend now using SSII and I absolutely love it. I havent had one single issue with breakage since I started using it. Of course I use one of John's benders and blankets too.

You know me though, I have to do everything different than the others. I spray the wood with the SSII then hang the sides up to dry. When they are dry, I soak them down again with SSII on both sides and bend away. I can bend some of the curliest woods into cutaway shapes and never have any issues of breakage.
Author:  John Mayes [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
I've never found the need for any of these additives. I know people use them and get benifit from it, and that's great, but I've bent over 1700 sides in the past 12 years and I've only ever broke one of them. It was the first one I tried bending by hand on a pipe. The right thickness, and technique is all you really need for any sides, figured or otherwise, to bend without issue.
Author:  Frei [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
Hesh wrote:
You weren't using those Al Gore light bulbs were you?

.



laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe
Author:  John Mayes [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
ToddStock wrote:
So far, it seems as though only John R has 1) used SSII and 2) did not care for the experience.


was that aimed at me?
Author:  John Mayes [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
ToddStock wrote:
Not so much. There was a whole gaggle of youall...think I musta winged two or three.


idunno

whatever
Author:  stan thomison [ Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
If think need it to bend sides, fine use it. I like John and know boss have bent hundreds of sets, using high figure and othe grains of woods and not break them as use good technique You can bend just as well without it as you can with it. Most broke sides are not from not using this stuff or any other thing, and bad technique. It probably is a saver for those who have a harder time with bending using poor technique. Again not saying it isn't a great product and it probably is and folks who use it can and have done well with it or without it, but not a needed thing to get the job done. I wonder how all those side sets got bent before this was the new in thing and if need to recall them all.
Author:  JohnR [ Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
Todd
The principle of moments is derived from Archimedes' discovery of the operating principle of the lever.[citation needed] In the lever one applies a force (in his day most often human muscle), to an arm beam of some sort. Archimedes noted that the amount of force applied to the object, the moment of force, is defined as M = rF, where F is the applied force, and r is the distance from the applied force to object.
Hope that helps
John R
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: forget the supersoft
Most who understand what you're saying John R just call it a moment, not a moment of force as the force must be there inorder to make the moment. Without the applied force you wouldn't have the moment, just a length ;)
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