Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Bending with bender vs by hand

I know that bending with blankets and a bender seem to be the preferred method but how much spring back do you guys get with it. What I mean is If I use a bender exclusively will I have problems with springback or can one use a bender without a pipe for touch up? I would hate to go with a bender and discover I need both. Is the construction of the form the critical part to prevent springback or compensate for it?

Thanks

I use a piece of chain link fence post and a torch...works fine. Keep it below 800 degrees F or so and you should not get any cookoff from the zinc.

You need both or at least I use both.

Never, never, never leave your pipe on and clamped to a bench pointing into your shop if you build in your boxers.........

Zac, there are many inexpensive ways to make a pipe bender as well as a side bender with molds.

http://www.lint.org/TechNotes/lowcostbender.html
http://www.billsbest.com/thsidebender.html

You could easily have both of these benders for less than $30 and a bit of effort on your part.

Would a ladies curling iron work for bending binding...? :oops:

How did they make instruments hundreds of years ago?

Would a ladies curling iron work for bending binding...? :oops:

Author:	zac_in_ak [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Bending with bender vs by hand
I know that bending with blankets and a bender seem to be the preferred method but how much spring back do you guys get with it. What I mean is If I use a bender exclusively will I have problems with springback or can one use a bender without a pipe for touch up? I would hate to go with a bender and discover I need both. Is the construction of the form the critical part to prevent springback or compensate for it? Thanks

Author:	Brock Poling [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
zac_in_ak wrote: I know that bending with blankets and a bender seem to be the preferred method but how much spring back do you guys get with it. What I mean is If I use a bender exclusively will I have problems with springback or can one use a bender without a pipe for touch up? I would hate to go with a bender and discover I need both. Is the construction of the form the critical part to prevent springback or compensate for it? Thanks I frequently use both. I often bend bindings on a pipe and sides in the bender, but sometimes I touch the sides up if they don't fit to the mold as nicely as I like.

Author:	Sam Price [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
I don't have a bender and form due to the fact my workshop is the size of a shoebox. I have had limited success on the hotpipe, either because I have used compliant woods, or I've just been lucky.

Author:	Cal Maier [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
When it comes right down to it you will need both, just because the universal type bender just isn't 100% perfect you will end up touching your bends up on the hot pipe. My advise is get yourself a pipe(or make one) and learn how to use it, then add a bender if you feel the need. Even Charles Fox says the bender isn't perfect enough for him and he uses a pipe to touch up. Cal

Author:	Rod True [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
I have both but honestly, I don't EVER use my pipe anymore. I've compensated my bending forms at the waist and at each end and after they are finished bending they fit more perfect in my mold than they ever would by me touching them up on the pipe. My first two guitars, I bent on the pipe, neither of them were anywhere near perfect. The 3-6th ones I've bent with the bending machine and they are considerably more perfect than I could ever do on the pipe. The important factor is the acuracy of the bending form. If the form isn't shaped right, of course it won't produce a perfect side. Now, I know a pro (local in my area) who makes about 60 guitars a year. For the first 5 years of business he used a bending machine much like the ones at Larrivee (he apprenticed there). For the last 6 years he's bent everything on the pipe. He says that it's just as fast for him and he likes to feel the wood bending and form it into shape. So all that to say, both will work fine. One just needs to master the pipe or compensate the bending form (also make sure the form is acurate to the mold and final shape). But I don't think we really need both. Do you think Martin, Taylor, Takamine (insert good quality factory name here...) worry about touching up on the pipe? They make there bending forms to compensate for spring back or they just don't get any. Wood can be bent in the bending machine so it doesn't spring back. The technique just needs to be right. That's my opinion anyway.

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Author:	Frei [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
Does anyone use a blowtorch/pipe outfit? I was thinking of using fencepost steel, but its galvanized, not sure if that will offgas when heated with a torch??? There is some 12' length of aluminium pipe on ebay, but its only 1/8 thick. But its cheap.

Author:	Hesh [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
You need both or at least I use both. Never, never, never leave your pipe on and clamped to a bench pointing into your shop if you build in your boxers.........

Author:	TonyFrancis [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
-

Author:	Frei [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
ToddStock wrote: I use a piece of chain link fence post and a torch...works fine. Keep it below 800 degrees F or so and you should not get any cookoff from the zinc. Ok, Under 800, so what type of flame on the torch? Low,medium high? What temp is this thing heated to??

Author:	David LaPlante [ Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
I used the pipe/torch combo for decades and just recently splurged on the electric type. It works just as well and is a bit safer I think. In order to prevent the torch from blowing itself out while inserted into the pipe, it always required very fine adjustment. I would get it hot enough so that water dripped onto it's surface would "dance".........don't know exactly what temp it was. I would briefly soak the wood and bend wet......by the time the water had steamed off the bend was accomplished and I moved ahead to the next wetted area. I would experiment with your flame to get this result but not be so hot that it will scorch the wood. I've never used a bending machine.

Author:	zac_in_ak [ Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
Hesh wrote: You need both or at least I use both. Never, never, never leave your pipe on and clamped to a bench pointing into your shop if you build in your boxers......... Good to know Hesh since I do in fact do many building operations in my boxers Thanks all for now I think an electric pipe bender is in my future. The torch is not for me( kids and an Apt) and I can't afford to do both. Maybe a future purchase....

Author:	Rod True [ Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
Zac, there are many inexpensive ways to make a pipe bender as well as a side bender with molds. http://www.lint.org/TechNotes/lowcostbender.html http://www.billsbest.com/thsidebender.html You could easily have both of these benders for less than $30 and a bit of effort on your part.

Author:	zac_in_ak [ Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
Rod True wrote: Zac, there are many inexpensive ways to make a pipe bender as well as a side bender with molds. http://www.lint.org/TechNotes/lowcostbender.html http://www.billsbest.com/thsidebender.html You could easily have both of these benders for less than $30 and a bit of effort on your part. Thanks I actually have the parts for the second bender but haven't been able to find a suitable pipe for a decent price here...ok maybe I will try to do the first one it doesn't look too hard......

Author:	Rod True [ Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
Here's another one from the MIMF where the person used a coffee can for the "pipe" http://www.mimf.com/library/side_bender2.htm

Author:	pnj [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
I'm using a fox style bender for my sides and I'm having a tough time bending the wood. I've got two 100 watt bulbs and I'm scared to put higher watts in. It just seems like a fire hazzard... being in an apartment doesn't seem so safe... Last night I tried to boil/steam my sides and the heat from doing so left the wood within minutes of removing the wood from the steam bath..

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Author:	Hesh [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
PNJ it's good to have a healthy respect for side benders because they have caused fires and we had an OLF member who's bender nearly caused a fire in his shop. But this is when it was left on and unattended. As in your other thread I would still suggest getting a blanket and not trying to reinvent the bending wheel so-to-speak.... If you can't do a blanket lots of benders have 3 bulbs, 150 - 200 watts. Also get a fire extinguisher which every shop should have too and make sure that it is properly charged as well. And just get in the habit of never leaving your bender if it is on no matter what might distract you and you will be fine.

Author:	pnj [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
I make it a habit of standing next to or sitting near my bender when it's on. I'll have to try higher watt bulbs I think. I realize a blanket is better but I'd rather spend the 100 bucks or so on other items... How did they make instruments hundreds of years ago?

Author:	Steve Sollod [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
Would a ladies curling iron work for bending binding...?

Author:	pnj [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
Steve Sollod wrote: Would a ladies curling iron work for bending binding...? I wouldn't think they get hot enough..

Author:	Dave Stewart [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
You can bend binding over the top of a light bulb!

Author:	Rod True [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
pnj wrote: How did they make instruments hundreds of years ago? They had to wait for lightning to strike and than they would run out to the fields with there side wood in hand and find the tree which was hit by the lightning, look around for the best size limb and start bending. Often though, lightning would strike twice and they got fried Just kidding of course. Often they used the pipe in which there wood stove exhausted out of the building. Metal and heat in any form make for a good bender. There are still some who like to use coal fired pipes to do their bending if you can beleive it. One doesn't need electricity to bend sides. Heck I bet my 2.5" exhaust pipe on my truck gets plenty hot enough to bend sides on.

Author:	WaddyThomson [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
I believe AlexM bent his sides using a curling iron. They will get hot enough. The small size is something of an issue. They get so hot they'll curl your hair! Speaking of Alex M, has anyone heard from him? I haven't seen him around lately.

Author:	Hesh [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
Steve Sollod wrote: Would a ladies curling iron work for bending binding...? Ask Billy........

Author:	Pat Hawley [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
Electric BBQ starter in some exhaust pipe. Pat

Author:	Todd Rose [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Bending with bender vs by hand
I am of the opinion that everyone who wants to build guitars would do well to learn to bend sides by hand on a pipe. I'm not really a "traditionalist" by nature and I'm definitely not a hand tool purist or anything like that. I just think that bending wood by hand on a pipe is a great way to do it and a great skill to have. For a hobbyist who is probably going to build less than a dozen guitars in their lifetime (I realize some hobbyists will build quite a few more than that, but I think you get my point), presumably of several different shapes, it seems silly to me to build a bender and different forms when you can just bend them all by hand. For someone who intends to get into guitar building on a professional or semi-pro level, it seems clear to me that bending by hand is one of the basic skills that will make life a lot easier. Besides, it's fun! Really. It may be challenging at first, but challenge is a big part of what guitar building is all about, right? I'm not trying to chastise anyone for not being a "real luthier" or any such nonsense, I just think you're missing out on one of the coolest experiences in the process of building a guitar if you haven't bent at least a few sides by hand. It's not really THAT hard. For one thing, I think it gives you a much clearer sense of what you're asking the wood to do when using a bender, so it can help a lot with your success in using a bender if you decide to use one. Also, I think accidents like scorching and breaking sides are a lot less likely with hand bending because you're handling the wood directly and constantly checking on your progress - you can feel the wood relax and give, you don't force it beyond what it's ready to do, and you can immediately see/feel/smell if it's getting too hot because you don't have it all closed up in a bender. It seems to me that the popularity of the Fox benders (and various others) has created a popular assumption that if you want to build a guitar, one of the first things you need to do is build a bender, and/or that bending by hand is this extraordinarily difficult thing that a beginner should circumvent if possible... quite mistaken notions, if you ask me.