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Are you a player or just a builder?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=18928		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  JRE Productions [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Are you a player or just a builder?
It appears I keep opening cans of worms all over the place. My appologies in advance if this one is another sore spot.

I am wondering which of you builders are also guitar players (or whatever your instrument is that you build)? I find it more and more common to see someone with little or no playing skills building guitars. I suppose all builders must play at least a little bit to have been drawn into this industry. While at the Chicagoland gathering earlier this summer, many that were there mentioned they were not (very good?) players.

One of my local building buddies is on Guitar 5 or maybe its 6. He will readily admit he only knows a few chords. As I play his guitars, I sometimes will catch something that does not feel normal to me. When we examine the area that may have caught my attention, we find it to be something only a player may have caught. It might be as subtle as how the neck profile rolls into the fingerboard. Or how the edge of the fingerboard rolls into the playing surface.

Another of my local building buddies is probably at the intermediate level of playing...maybe leaning more toward the advance level. (I am not postive, as when we are together I do most of the playing.) I find his guitars tend to feel pretty good from a build standpoint, but may not be setup quite as ideal for playing all over the fretboard that a more advanced player may do.

While I feel being a player has its advantages, it does not mean a non player can't build a superior guitar. But I would think it might put them at a slight disavantage.

Are you also a player? What level? Does this help or hinder your ability to build and setup your guitars?

Thanks,
Joe
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
This may be mostly safe Eat Drink Eat Drink laughing6-hehe

I am an ex performer player that go struck with CTS and after the third surgery finally figured out that playing other than for personal pleaser was now out of the question. In fact, that the reason I stated building in the first place. A way to stay in touch with the instrument I so dearly loved. I am somewhat ashamed to say that over the last seven yeas I have allowed my playing skill to diminish badly. But as they say you can only serve one passion at a time.

OH yea I agree with what Mike is about to say after me :D
Author:  Mike Collins [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
I'm a player-have been for 40 years!!!
Wow! -- I'm old!!!!!
I do find that my playing experience helps with my guitarmaking!
But anyone making instruments is hopefully listening to their creations and making intelligent decisions of their work!

I do not think it's neccessary for a maker to be a musician-to make a good guitar!!!!
Just a good observer of their works!



Action set-up may be a problem-there are lots of specs. available for string height,nut & 12th fret from many sources !-BUT being able to test drive a guitar certainly helps !!

Mike
Author:  Colin S [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
Yes 40+ year player here as well. Yes, it helps me in setting up a guitar or lute, but only in setting it up the way I like to play, which may not be the way you like to play.

Colin
Author:  SteveCourtright [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
Player for over 40 years here also! Detect a trend? Making stuff for almost as long, but guitars for about 3 years.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
dang are we all the same age here? I omitted how long I have been playing wow7-eyes
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
I've been playing for about 28 years, but I was a late starter. Not too good though, most of my playing is ensemble playing. Trying to re-discover my solo capabilities, long forgotten. Not sure if it helps or hurts, yet, though, as I have not built enough guitars to know.
Author:  Frank Aarre [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
A beginner in both areas here i'm afraid, at least i'm only half your age :D ( [uncle] )
Author:  Mike Collins [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
Wow!!!!!
The old guys responded first!!!!!!!!
Sorry! oops_sign

There certainly is a advantage to setting up guitars & other instruments if you can play one!
But-anyone can make one !
really!!! beehive

Mike
Author:  JRE Productions [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
I am only 42...but started playing guitar at age 4. I had great influences from my father who is also a player and we played every night. By an early age (maybe 11 or 12) I was playing in wedding bands with guys 2-3x my age and keeping up with them. So I guess I have about 38 years of playing with about 30+ as a paid proffesional. I still play 100 gigs a year so my chops are pretty sharp.

I carved my neck on #1 with no templates, all by feel. I took it over to another builders shop where he checked it against templates and found it to be quite consistant to factory build guitars. Checking at the 3/5/7/9/and12 fret locations it had almost no deviation from his templates for a high end taylor. I just carved until it felt right...which would be maybe my 58 Gibson neck or simular. I would say my playing skills helped in carving the neck and may have been actually better than the templates in the fact that the neck feels "broken in"...even before being played.

Cheers!

J
Author:  Rod True [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
I'm only 38 so young compared to most of you old crows beehive

I've been playing for 20 years, I don't have great coordination from one hand to the other so finger style playing is very very hard for me. I'm great a chords and keeping the rythem which is what I did for 15 years of leading music at church. The band always made me sound better than I am I'm sure :D

I have several friends who play way better and a few professionals. They give me feedback on my guitars for both sound and set up so I feel pretty good about where things are at right now.

So, I've done some setup work on some of these peoples guitars based on what they want, that's the important part I think. Being able to give the player what they want.

Playing certainly does help. And being a better player I would think would also help more.
Author:  npalen [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
I'm a non-player. I remember someone several years back on the MIMF saying that you can't build a guitar unless you've done repair work for several years.
Hey, I've repaired just about every conceivable problem on my own guitars.
Setup? Well the customer is the ultimate judge.
Just some random thoughts.
Nelson
Author:  Sam Price [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
35 years, been playing 20, yes it influences the way I "try" to build a lot.
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
I started playing in 1962, played more in college and got involved in the coffee house scene
playing back-up for lots of singers in some great places. It was a tremendous experience.
Then, career, etc. came along and I played but not nearly as much as I should. Started building in 1974 and got so involved in what makes up a good guitar that I forgot how to play one. I still play, but only under threat of bodily harm. In fact, I've been offered money not
to play. Sorry situation. I just need to practice. A lot.

Best
Bruce
Author:  Mike Collins [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
npalen wrote:
I'm a non-player. I remember someone several years back on the MIMF saying that you can't build a guitar unless you've done repair work for several years.
Hey, I've repaired just about every conceivable problem on my own guitars.
Setup? Well the customer is the ultimate judge.
Just some random thoughts.
Nelson


Your right!
BUT it helps if you get it right the first time!
That's where playing experience come in to the over-all picture!
Every repair & the guitars I make have to be approved by the owner-player!!!

I think a non player can make and set up an instrument-but it helps if ya can play a bit!
Mike [uncle]
Author:  Geordie Adams [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
hey all
I’m 110! ;)
Played as a teenager in Edinburgh, Liverpool and then London in the ‘60’s - the music of the day / roots mandolin, banjo and guitar also. Stopped playing when I was twenty. Started again in ‘85 and have continued since developing “my style” / making tunes. Done all sorts o’ minor repairs to various musical instruments over the years. I am a bit of an impostor here ‘cause I’m just about to start (monday) on my first guitar, I’m doing a two year collage course in stringed instrument making in nearby Glasgow.
Yeah it’s invaluable in understanding the players needs and the variables involved in doing fret work / set ups. I am looking forward to building guitars and hope my skills don't let my down to much, but am encouraged by the quality of work and know-how I find on this forum.
Oh, I don’t consider myself a “guitarist” though, I just play my toons and it happens to be - on the guitar.
yours Geordie
PS. Joe, I like a guy with “sharp chops”.
Author:  David LaPlante [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
I'm 58, a player for 45 years and a builder for 42.
I definitely think a player has a better chance of developing an ear for tone as well as a better appreciation for the myriad combination of factors that we refer to as "feel".
We still get out and perform in public, and I think it is one of the most valuable things I do for my guitar making.
It serves to remind me of the context in which these things are used.
It's amazing how things like Brazilian rosewood, pearl inlay and a host of other stuff that we all consider "important" become transparent in front of an audience.
From that perspective, all that really matters is putting the music across.

http://www.all-she-wrote.com

http://www.guitarsbydavidlaplante.com
Author:  KenH [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
Fromt he title of this thread, I was expecting some other question, but this is a good one!

I play the guitar, and have done so for about 35-40 years but for the last 10 years or so I have been playing lead guitar and mostly electric (at church). I have been playing riffs and fills for so long that I can hardly play a song all the way through any more. Seems like once you start down that path, it tends to take away your ability to play other things.

By no means am I a professional player though.... simply an amature player that dearly loves to build guitars.
Author:  pharmboycu [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
JRE Productions wrote:
It appears I keep opening cans of worms all over the place. My appologies in advance if this one is another sore spot.

I am wondering which of you builders are also guitar players (or whatever your instrument is that you build)? I find it more and more common to see someone with little or no playing skills building guitars. I suppose all builders must play at least a little bit to have been drawn into this industry. While at the Chicagoland gathering earlier this summer, many that were there mentioned they were not (very good?) players.

One of my local building buddies is on Guitar 5 or maybe its 6. He will readily admit he only knows a few chords. As I play his guitars, I sometimes will catch something that does not feel normal to me. When we examine the area that may have caught my attention, we find it to be something only a player may have caught. It might be as subtle as how the neck profile rolls into the fingerboard. Or how the edge of the fingerboard rolls into the playing surface.

Another of my local building buddies is probably at the intermediate level of playing...maybe leaning more toward the advance level. (I am not postive, as when we are together I do most of the playing.) I find his guitars tend to feel pretty good from a build standpoint, but may not be setup quite as ideal for playing all over the fretboard that a more advanced player may do.

While I feel being a player has its advantages, it does not mean a non player can't build a superior guitar. But I would think it might put them at a slight disavantage.

Are you also a player? What level? Does this help or hinder your ability to build and setup your guitars?

Thanks,
Joe


As someone who cannot build and only does limited setup work, I feel almost like I shouldn't chime in here, but I will say that I have so much respect for all of you builders that if I had posted this question, I would have said, "Are you a builder or just a player?" Builders almost never get the credit they deserve. Then again, I'm also the one whose musical hero list is topped by Tom Dowd and Billy Wolf, so my perspective may be slightly deviant... :-)
Author:  BruceH [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
I only know three chords, but I only build dreadnoughts, so it all works out. ;)
Author:  Tai Fu [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
Leo Fender is perhaps the one man who revolutionized rock n roll and he can't play guitar, or at least not very well.

I play guitar but I can't say that I am a very good player. I tend to be unstable with chords and can only do power chord and open chord effectively but any other chords I stumble a lot. I don't really like spending lots of time practicing because I don't know, maybe I have a short attention span. I can solo but slowly, can't do the fast van halen solo at all. I know a lot of players who are much better than I am with musical instruments but then I don't know anyone who can build guitars at all.
Author:  matti [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
I've been playing for about 5 years now, started in first year of university and still love to play as much as i did when i learned my first chord. I only just started building and finished my first about a month ago. I don't think I am a good player either but play as much as I can within my time constraints.
I just stared to build so someday when I am a good player hopefully i'll be able to build myself a good guitar as well haha
Author:  douglas ingram [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
I've been playing for about 25 years, sometimes more, sometimes less. I have a bad left hand due to the after effects of a spinal injury (lucky to be walking). So, no matter how much I practice I'll never get "good".

I'm a pretty solid intermediate player. My biggest problem with being a player is that I don't think music; I think in colour, design, structure, etc. At least (I hope) I play well enough to analyze my building efforts.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
David LaPlante wrote:
I'm 58, a player for 45 years and a builder for 42.
I definitely think a player has a better chance of developing an ear for tone as well as a better appreciation for the myriad combination of factors that we refer to as "feel".
We still get out and perform in public, and I think it is one of the most valuable things I do for my guitar making.
It serves to remind me of the context in which these things are used.
It's amazing how things like Brazilian rosewood, pearl inlay and a host of other stuff that we all consider "important" become transparent in front of an audience.
From that perspective, all that really matters is putting the music across.


I have to agree with what David said. Adding to that, I feel that a reasonable level of proficiency as a player - to the point where, for example, one has good control of tone through playing technique - provides a depth of understanding of the instrument and a sensitivity to all the subtleties of feel and sound that are, for me, part of the foundation of guitar making. I would also mention ear training and other musical skills in the same breath. I really can't imagine making guitars without this experience. I also see it as the basis of communication with players/customers.

I am by no means a virtuoso, or even a "good" player (by my own standards), but I can play, and do play regularly, sometimes professionally, but mostly for pure enjoyment. I've been playing for 29 years, and I'm happy to say I'm still getting better.

I do not mean to disrespect anyone whose experience is different from mine, or who knows of great guitar makers who don't play. I am just speaking of my own experience.
Author:  Michael Jin [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a player or just a builder?
I can't shred like Yngwie Malmsteen, but I can play well enough, I think.
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