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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Neck reset question |
A friend has a twenty year old D-18 style guitar that is in need of a neck reset. Although I am not a repairman he has asked me to do it. I've looked it over and measured it out. Once I get the neck set at an angle that will give a straight edge (layed along the figerboard) 1/6" clearance over the bridge, the fingerboard will need to raise up off the upper bout about a 1/6" at end of the fretboard. How do you handle that? Seems to me I have two chooses, 1-Just glue the end of the fingerboard down. That will mean it will bow down at the body joint, or, 2-put a wedge under the extension and keep the fingerboard flat? What am I missing? Should I just send him off to a qualified person? He says he wants me to just do my best but I don't know. |
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| Author: | stan thomison [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
If not know what to do and not a repair tech, save yourself and your friend possible problems and take it to a qualified tech or someone who knows what to do taking it off and resetting it. Learn this on your own stuff and cheap stuff. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
Thanks Stan, that may be the way I'll ultimately go.... but, for now I would like to know the answer on the correct way to do it.... |
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| Author: | JRE Productions [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
I am not sure I understand the question fully. Once you have the neck off, you will change the angle (by tilting the neck back at the heel) to accomplish getting the fingerboard closer to the strings. This means as you lay a straight edge on the fingerboard it should end up at a particular hieght by the bridge. That hieght is based on several things, but mostly how thick the bridge is and how tall the saddle needs to be. Once that angle has been figured out, the end of the fingerboard may tilt downward a tad bit when glued to the top of the guitar. If it tilts downward a lot...you probably have the neck set at too steep on an angle. I would think somewhere around 1.5 degrees of tilt on the neck itself would get you pretty darn close to the right height at the bridge. With this angle and the curve of the guitar top, the fingerboard should only tilt downward about maybe .030-.040" |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
Joe, Yes, I think we are talking about the same thing. When I checked the top of the guitar it was flat from the neck to the end pin. The way I make mine is I turn the top down from the waist to the neck joint about .05" That is about the 1.5 degree angle you mentioned. That gives you a gap of about 1/16" from the top of a 1/4" fingerboard to the top of a 3/8" bridge. Not so with this guitar. When neck resets are done do they typically have this problem or do things fit right again as they did when built? |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
The combination of circumstances you describe--a neck needing a reset, a top flat from neck block to tail block, and a fretboard extension that would need to be shimmed 1/6" at the end after a reset in order not to have a downturn--does not seem likely. Why do you say the guitar needs a neck reset? Where would a straightedge placed on the board now be pointing to at the bridge? What is the height of the bridge now? And why do you think the top surface of the board needs to be set to point 1/6" above the top of the bridge? |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
My guess is he means 1/16" but I was sort of thinking the same thing Howard. I guess tackling this kind of depends on the guitar you're talking about. You said D-18 "style". Is this a Martin or martin knockoff? Also a 20 year old Martin isn't really much to write home about. Heck, my Takamine is 20 years old too and sounds better than many Martin's I tryed out when I bought it, but that's a different topic all together. Sounds like someone forgot to sand the rim in the spherical dish on that day at the factory? I bet it's just poor QC and honestly they just let it out the door as is. If it truly is flat from neck block to tail block you could sand a portion of the angle into the upper bout than set the neck and add a shim under the fretboard. You could split the difference between the two and if you could match the fretboard wood, it might not be to noticable. That would get the guitar playable again. Nothing ever fits the same as it did when it was first built. The top has pulled up some and the neck has pulled back some. There is rotation of the neck block a bit too (although small, some rotation none the less). |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
Joe, Before offering advice, it may do everyone well to know exactly what "D-18 style" guitar this is. Aside from removal and resetting techniques varying notably from one make to the other, the choice whether to offer advice on how to repair or urge you to refer it to a professional could depend on this. There are some guitars that are perfect for your first neck reset to learn on (expecting "first neck reset" kind of results), and others that aren't. And as pointed out, I assume the 1/6" clearance was a typo. Depending on many variables within an instrument, a reset neck usually varies from dead even to the top of the bridge, to at most 1/16" above measured from the top of the frets. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
I too assume he means 1/16" 1/6 would be near 3/16" now the issue Howard brought up. Where is fretboard plane in reference to the bridge at present? Has the body sunk at the extension and pulled up at the bridge? A neck reset is always a somewhat risky venture. and 10 times as risky for a untrained repair tech. Easy to mess up the fretboard though that would be easy to replace, very easy to mess up the neck, and super easy to really screw up the finish. Anyone doing neck rests really needs experience doing neck resets and commercial liability insurance. remember you are taking apart other people’s property I whole heartedly suggest you walk away for this and recommend your friend finds an authorized Martin repair tech in his area. |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
MichaelP wrote: I whole heartedly suggest you walk away for this and recommend your friend finds an authorized Martin repair tech in his area. I agree mostly, though with one caveat - "Martin Authorized Service Center" should in no way be taken as a seal of stellar workmanship. I no longer due any manufacturer warranty repairs, because I can't afford to work for 30 cents on the dollar. I do often see Martin repairs done under warranty at a local "Authorized Service Center", when the customer brings them in to me to pay to have the neck re-reset, or the bridge re-replaced. I also have plenty of customers who are more than happy to pay in full for a proper repair rather than risk their instrument elsewhere in efforts to save a few bucks. Though many are good, some can be total hack shops. Never trust the sticker on the door alone, but seek counsel from other musicians and collectors in the area. When we find out what the guitar actually is though, opinions may change. If you want to learn neck resets there are certainly some old cheap guitars that are perfect candidates for practice, so long as your friend is fully aware of this and willing to accept the risk that it may not come out as planned. |
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| Author: | JRE Productions [ Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
I agree with David. I have done maybe 8-9 resets besides my practice victims. I used an old pair of Stela's I had for practice. They were about 10 years apart in age. I removed the neck from both. Reset them both with a better playing angle. I then removed them both again and swapped necks. This required more adjustments. Once completed, both play appropriately for an accoustic guitar. I have kept these guitars around the shop just to try things I haven't done before. Each guitar will present its own difficulties and will need to addressed on a one-by-one basis. PS: I got a first hand experience at resetting a neck glued with titebond. It was not an easy task to remove the neck! That stuff is more like rubber when it starts to break down. J |
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| Author: | Jeffrey L. Suits [ Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
"A friend has a twenty year old D-18 style guitar that is in need of a neck reset." If this _isn't_ a Martin, anyone attempting this reset could be in for a full, can-of-worms, non-dovetailed, epoxied horror. Don't ask me how I know... |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
Thank you for all the replies. Yes I do mean 1/16" as what I would like to achieve. Now if you lay a straight edge on the fingerboard it would touch the bridge almost 1/16" below the top of the bridge. The bridge is 3/8" tall and the fingerbord is 1/4" high without the frets. they are pretty much standard frets about .04 high. It is not a martin or even a takamine. The brand escapes me now but it was about a $250 guitar 20 years ago. My friend says the action was always to low. after a few years he put it away. Now he wants to use it for a granddaughter. If the guitar was unfinished I would most likely sand down the upper bout somewhat and make a thinner bridge but..... that is going to be way to much for this old guitar. Maybe I should settle for a small wedge under the fingerboard extension, about 1/32" at the tall end, a slight turn down of the fingerboard extension, and a slightly taller saddle. As far as removing dovetail necks, I don't mind giving it a go.... I just don't want to get into refinishing work. |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
Cut the bridge down 1/16". Inexpensive guitars of that period are almost certain to have been finished with the neck on; you won't get it out without needing finish repairs. And if the next points to the top of the bridge (as it will when you cut 1/16" off), you have room enough for the saddle and not too low a bridge. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
Thanks Howard. That sounds like a clean way to proceed.... |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
Yes, shave the bridge. If it's already .375" high, it's tall to begin with and you can go down to around .300" before it starts to look too short. Chances are good it's not a dovetail anyway, so even if you did reset the neck it would better be done as a shoulder-tuck or a bolt-on conversion. A $250 acoustic new in the 80's wouldn't be worth the hassle for either of these though. Shave the bridge, make it functional, and tell the owner any more money invested would be better put in a slush fund toward a replacement. |
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| Author: | pharmboycu [ Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
David Collins wrote: MichaelP wrote: I whole heartedly suggest you walk away for this and recommend your friend finds an authorized Martin repair tech in his area. I agree mostly, though with one caveat - "Martin Authorized Service Center" should in no way be taken as a seal of stellar workmanship. I no longer due any manufacturer warranty repairs, because I can't afford to work for 30 cents on the dollar. I do often see Martin repairs done under warranty at a local "Authorized Service Center", when the customer brings them in to me to pay to have the neck re-reset, or the bridge re-replaced. I also have plenty of customers who are more than happy to pay in full for a proper repair rather than risk their instrument elsewhere in efforts to save a few bucks. Though many are good, some can be total hack shops. Never trust the sticker on the door alone, but seek counsel from other musicians and collectors in the area. When we find out what the guitar actually is though, opinions may change. If you want to learn neck resets there are certainly some old cheap guitars that are perfect candidates for practice, so long as your friend is fully aware of this and willing to accept the risk that it may not come out as planned. I learned this the hard way, having an authorized repair center do a partial refret on a 1950 D-28. It was so badly botched that M@rtin wanted to see the instrument and they had to replace the original fretboard because of the damage. I was broken hearted, as it was in near pristine condition before this was done. Truly, just because a place is "authorized" to do the work doesn't necessarily mean they *should* do the work. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
Thanks David, Howard, Michael, Joe, Stan, Rod & Others..... I was looking forward to trying a neck re-set but I think you are right. I'll go with a cutdown bridge. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
Not all Authorized Martin repair centers are bad either. I am one and it took a lot of hard work to earn it . It is true that some "Authorized shops " will not do work to your liking , but again that is true of any shop you have no personal relationship with. The best advice is to find a shop that can proove itself and that you feel comfortable with. You don't just get to be Authorized anymore , it is not an easy process to complete. john hall Blues Creek Gutiars |
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| Author: | ChuckH [ Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
bluescreek wrote: Not all Authorized Martin repair centers are bad either. I am one and it took a lot of hard work to earn it . You don't just get to be Authorized anymore , it is not an easy process to complete. john hall Blues Creek Gutiars John, What is the process you have to complete to become Authorized? Do you have to go to the factory for a series of repairs? Just interested in the process and how you did it. I'm not wanting to become an authorized Martin shop, nor do I have a shop. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
You do have to supply a resume, and pictures of your work. In my case I am near the plant and 6 years ago I was to have my certification. There was a tax glitch that had to ironed out in the courts . In New Jersey they were saying that if you were an authorized repair center then CF Martin was to be held liable for state tax as doing business in the state. After all the legal jumbo they started certifying shops for repair. I have had the training at the plant and had formal schooling. They know me and when they started certifying , I got a chance. A new shop is on probation for a period of time so you earn your stripes before the shop is listed on the martin site. I am still in the probation phase but will be out of the cellar soon. It isn't easy and they certificate can be revoked if you are not up to standard . The pay is not 30 cents on the dollar , but not what I normally charge ,still the other work that this brings in and the accreditation has a legitimacy that can't be bad for the ole resume john hall blues creek guitars |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
Joe, I've got an old cheapie Stella, a cheap Yamaha, a 1970's Vega dread (made at the time Martin owned Vega), and a few other nameless odds and ends in my shop, all waiting for me to get around to learning to do neck resets and/or other Frankensteinian experiments. I payed a couple hundred bucks for the Vega, which might actually turn out to be a pretty good dread that I can resell. The others were all given to me. I would suggest starting such a collection. |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck reset question |
What Todd said. I did that for about three years, selling instruments that I'd put back together. Lucky for me, there weren't very many Asian guitars put together with epoxy that needed work yet. Terrific way to see what makes them fold up, fall apart or sound bad. Pat |
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