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Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
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Author:  Hesh [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
It's no surprise to many builders that the popsicle brace arrangement just does not work very well.

Here is a pic, a rather poor one that I took with my IPhone, of a poor old Guild guitar that came into the shop for repair. It has a popsicle brace that as the guitar started to fold just let loose...

Attachment:
photo[1].jpg


Although this is a rather extreme example of how well the popsicle brace does NOT work I thought that it would make for an interesting discussion on the OLF if we asked folks to post pics of what they use instead of a popsicle brace.

Let's see or hear about your alternatives to using a popsicle brace please?

Thanks :)
Author:  Haans [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
I've been playing around with that sort of thing. I've been using maple here on the left, a six and 12 on right.

Image

On the six, the UTB is 1/2" maple, the lower 3/8" spruce/coco/spruce. The 12 has 3/8" spruce/Rio/spruce A-frame, UTB and 3/16" quartersawn maple between. Not shown are some finger braces that go out at a 45 from the A frame.
Author:  Pat Foster [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
Looks like heat played a big role on that Guild. Any other signs, Hesh, like a lifted bridge?

I use an A-brace, let into the neck block, running through the UTB, tightly fitted, and let into the upper arms of the X.

Pat
Author:  dberkowitz [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
Wrong answer folks. The popsicle braces aren't for preventing what happened in the picture -- they are for reinforcing the edges of the soundhole. What happened in the picture is that the headblock joint shifted. This has nothing to do with the soundhole braces.
Author:  Haans [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
Which is why I also do this...

Image
Author:  Ken Franklin [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
That doesn't look like a popsicle brace problem to me. It's much too severe. +1 for heat. That said, I use a different brace to spread and support the load.
Author:  David LaPlante [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
I've seen this kind of problem many times on guitars which have had the neck reset and the neck block inadvertantly separated from the top by the steam used to remove the neck. Unless the repair person carefully checks, the guitar can be reassembled in this condition with the resultant migration of the neck toward the soundhole, usually taking a portion of the top with it.
Author:  SteveCourtright [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
dberkowitz wrote:
Wrong answer folks. The popsicle braces aren't for preventing what happened in the picture -- they are for reinforcing the edges of the soundhole. What happened in the picture is that the headblock joint shifted. This has nothing to do with the soundhole braces.


Since there is a UTB between the sound hole and the popsicle brace, I don't understand how the PB could have any effect on the sound hole whatsoever...
Author:  Flori F. [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
Hesh,

I had an A-frame braced Gibson do the same thing as that Guild. I didn't subject it to heat, so go figure. I believe Dave is right about this being a case of the heel block shifting.

Flori
Author:  arie [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
i vote for the -neck block. look at the shear line of the cracks to the left and to the right of the fingerboard. and the binding. also looks like the neck isn't lifted up but moved inline towards the bridge. kinda looks like someone dropped it straight down on the headstock. sound hole braces wouldn't have helped here nor would the utg and ufb. they can't take perpendicular stress too well and would have simply popped off the soundboard.
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
SteveCourtright wrote:
dberkowitz wrote:
Wrong answer folks. The popsicle braces aren't for preventing what happened in the picture -- they are for reinforcing the edges of the soundhole. What happened in the picture is that the headblock joint shifted. This has nothing to do with the soundhole braces.


Since there is a UTB between the sound hole and the popsicle brace, I don't understand how the PB could have any effect on the sound hole whatsoever...


Right Steve - Maybe I should have said the upper transverse graft to be more clear - my fault.

I don't know what the deal is with this one yet. It came into the repair shop as I was leaving so I will be sure to get more info the next time I am in the city.

Anyway I have been thinking of nixing the upper transverse graft aka popsicle brace on my own guitars and selfishly wanted to see what others are doing and hopefully see it all in one place. Although 10's of millions of guitars have been built using the popsicle brace everyone I talk with who is in the know does not like the popsicle brace.

Thanks for all of the pics so far guys!!!

Let's see some more please?

Thanks :)
Author:  Cocephus [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
Good thread, Hesh.
My understanding is the "popsicle brace" is a means to control the top splitting in the upper bouts of the body.
More like a lamination than a brace.
Am I wrong?
Am I right?
Coe Franklin
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
Put a guitar in a hot car for a few hours, and this will be the result. When all the glue joints get softened, it seems that the top grain along the edge of the fretboard from the soundhole up to the top is the only thing left that holds the string tension. I have repaired several guitars with this condition, and the presence of a popsicle brace did not seem to be relevant.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
I've seen that pretty often as well, and it can be devastating on 12 strings guitars.
On a side note, and in relation to the "Glue tests" thread, it seems that it is one of the disadvantages of using PVA glues.
Author:  Jon L. Nixon [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
My understanding of the popsicle brace is that it serves to prevent (or lessen) the chance of the top splitting along the sides of the fingerboard. If that is it's purpose, it is obviously not 100% effective. Taylor's approach or any method that avoids directly gluing the fingerboard to the top is probably the best way to deal with that issue.
Many people consider that area to be acoustically dead....
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
I've seen that same thing, sometimes worse. I had a '72 Martin come in where the neck had shifted inward by nearly 1/8". In that case, the upper transverse graft (AKA 'popsicle stick') and UTB were still glued to the top, but you could see that the top had shifted, since there was visble glue on the downward side of the graft and the brace. This is a good example of why PVA based glue is not a good choice under prolonged shearing stress. Better prep would have helped as well: the top looked as though it had been smoothed out with a garden rake on the inside.

Like Pat Foster, I have been using an A-brace inletted into the neck block for years. These don't need to be very big: mine are usually about 1/4" square in section. They do seem to be very effective. I started using them when I had to replace the top on a 12 of mine that had gotten knocked off a table. The fall left it with a big ding in the back of the neck. The neck shifted forward, and I elected to simply replace the top. Since I've started using A-braces I've had two of my customers come back for touch-ups to similar dings, caused by equally traumatic accidents, but in neither case did the neck shift in. In fact, both times they commented that the guitar was still in tune.

Those flying braces are a good solution, too, but they have to be heavier to do the job, since they're longer and not tied to the top.
Author:  Pat Foster [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
Actually Allan, it would be more accurate to say I do it like you.

Pat
Author:  muthrs [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
A-frame has my vote. I even do half-lap joints through the upper face brace. Rock solid.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
No matter what bracing you use -It's super important that the guitar is NOT over stressed by heat ;humidity ,and stupidity!
I've repair 100's of guitar with this neck
"pull in".
The f.b. extension needs to come off and the top relocated to it's proper place -which can mean if the glue is reset after heat movement -the joint has to be cleaned and reglued.
Then check for these joints(top ,back &sides)-check for any loose braces.
Factory guitars are more prone to this because there is more of them for us to see.
And they are treated with less respect then handmade ones that players pay allot for and have a say in their making.
M
Author:  jhowell [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
Hesh--

The term 'popsicle brace' is really a hot button issue on the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum as it relates to tone, or percieved lack thereof. idunno I am way too inexperienced to have a meaningful opinion, but there are a couple of luthier/builders over there, John Arnold, Jim Bancroft, Brian Kimsey who do retro-fitted repairs and have the experience under their belts to offer a good discussion, especially on the repair end of it. A post in their Technical section with get a lot of action! I'm leaning towards the A-frame myself on the next one, though I really want to get the chops down on adjustable necks and cantelevered fretboards -- that's still a few down the road.
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
Jim's response was about what I was going to say, we hang out in similar places :D

From the beginning of Martin's X-bracing, a popsicle brace was always used. I have my doubts
that it was there to keep the top from collapsing under the weight of gut strings. They must have felt that it was doing something for the instrument.
Then when the OM's and 14 fret guitars came along in late 1929, no popsicle brace was used.
The first one used on a 14 fret Martin was in mid-1939. It was so thin that I doubt it
had much ability to stop the tounge of the fretboard to start folding up and causing those
cracks along the fingerboard and into the soundhole. I've always thought that was a heat
issue or some kind of trauma the guitar was subjected to.
Just my experience.
Author:  dberkowitz [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Popsicle Braces Not Effective (Pics)
I just realized I commented about the soundhole braces not the popsicle brace, but my basic conclusions still stands. The earlier comments that the popsicle brace was there to help control cracks along the edge of the fingerboard is most likely the reason for it being there.
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