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Luthiertool binding cutter?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=26274		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Wayne Clark [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Luthiertool binding cutter?
Has anybody here used the binding cutter from Luthier Tools (http://www.luthiertool.com/binding_cutter_base_B.html)? What did you think of it?

Thanks,
Wayne
Author:  Darrel Friesen [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
Wayne Clark wrote:
Has anybody here used the binding cutter from Luthier Tools (http://www.luthiertool.com/binding_cutter_base_B.html)? What did you think of it?

Thanks,
Wayne


I have a similar one that I made/use and am very happy with. I know Arnt Rian has a very similar one that he made. It should work very well. You may want to consider making your own for a fraction of the price though.
Author:  letseatpaste [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
I have one. Here are the pros and cons as I see them:

Pros:
-Well constructed
-Compact
-downcut spiral bit leaves very clean channel
-nearly infinitely adjustable within it's limits

Cons:
-Tips easily into the cut if you don't keep both bearings contacting the side
-little plastic shroud thing around bit gets packed with wood (next time around I'm going to see what it's like to use without)
-since it's infinitely adjustable, it's harder to maintain repeatable settings (vs. a bearing setup)
-Must keep it perpendicular to edge (looking down at top), or cut will be shallow width-wise... Not all bad because you can sneak up on the full width cut.
-Again, tips easily into the cut (great if you're into the whole "workmanship of risk" thing). Buy extra purfling.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
Any binding cutter that you hold by hand becomes more operator sensitive and more chance of error. The units with the body squared up in a cradle and the router held vertical by mechanical means will be more reliable and less prone to operator error. I made a similar type of cutter for my 1 st and 2nd guitars and after decided on the tower type and purchased the StewMac true channel fixture and a set of LMI bearings and cutter and it is almost idiot proof once the bearing is selected and the depth of cut is set.

Fred
Author:  Bob Shanklin [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
I have a similar one as do several friends. Takes a few builds to get used to but afterwords they are great. Dewalt lam trimmer works best with the one we have.

Bob
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
I had a unit similar to that one. I got sick of the tipping and the inconsistency. I finally built a version of the Don Williams biniding jig. http://precisionworkshop.combindingjig The jig works great. It took 20+ hours to set up. But, it was worth all the time so that I don't have to mess with faulty routing any more.
Author:  Brook Moore [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
I have owned a couple of these binding tools for several years and love them. Yes, there is the potential for making a divot, but the prevention is pretty simple: don't put inward pressure on the router. Anybody can master that pretty easily, I think. I much prefer the security of using down cutting spiral bits over the "safer" jigs that require bearing bits that are much more prone to chipping. I added handles to mine which makes it a lot easier to keep the pressure where it belongs. I have not had any problems at all with them.
Author:  Michael [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
I bought this unit and used it on my last 5 builds. Tipping is the main problem but that improves with practice. I like the handle Idea and will use that. The video on their site makes it look soooo easy. It is not easy.
Michael
Author:  Mike Lindstrom [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
That handle is a great idea! I used one of these on my first, and while it was easy, it was also nerve wracking. I only used it once, but I could not keep both bearings in contact with the side. And it did clog with chips.

Since then, I've used a homemade version of the Stew mac True Channel. I would prefer to use a spiral bit, but I have not yet had trouble with the piloted bits. Of course mine are basically brand new and still sharp. I figure it'd be easy to add an adjustable bearing to mine, but I haven't bothered yet.

Mike
Author:  mikemcnerney [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
I'm using it & found the learning curve OK. I'm going to add a handle this season. I have my work very high, almost at eye level so I can stand up straight & not get a sore back. I put the body holder/clamp on a turntable & work in sections maybe 5 to 10 inches at a time. If necessary on a final pass taking maybe .005 to .010 I will feed right to left to avoid tear out. No issues with grain tear out.
Mike McNerney
Author:  kjaffrey [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
I used a couple of jigs like this for my first 17 guitars and they worked okay, but finally broke down and built a stew-mac type binding jig (parts from 8020 inc) and bought a set of their binding bits for about 2/3 the cost. I just used the new set up and found it was much better than the old way, especially in the repeatablility for the depth of cuts and for working on the back side of a cutaway.

If saving money is your goal I would build a jig like this one and give it a try since it should only take a couple hours for one that works.

Kent
Author:  kjaffrey [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
I used a couple of jigs like this for my first 17 guitars and they worked okay, but finally broke down and built a stew-mac type binding jig (parts from 8020 inc) and bought a set of their binding bits for about 2/3 the cost. I just used the new set up and found it was much better than the old way, especially in the repeatablility for the depth of cuts and for working on the back side of a cutaway.

If saving money is your goal I would build a jig like this one and give it a try since it should only take a couple hours for one that works.

Kent
Author:  dberkowitz [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
I use these exclusively. They give a far more consistent cut than any other fixture I've tried. The Ribbecki sled style cutters give a terribly inconsistent cut because they are reliant on getting the entire body square to the table in the sled. I've made a bunch of guitars and as many as I've made, none of them were consistently square all the way around. This becomes even more problematic on guitars with the Manzer Wedge because on the narrow part of the body, the cut falls away on the Ribbecki jig. I've had no such issues with the Luthier Tool cutters. I have four -- one each for the binding full height, height with side purfling, top, and back purflings. They do require a different approach, but in my experience they give a more consistent cut.

David D. Berkowitz
Berkowitz Guitars
Author:  stan thomison [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
I use the Williams style, but used one like this. I am with David B here and always got even channel cuts. I though even with one have now make test cuts until have the depth right. Spend as much time as with rig your asking about, with making the body square with table along with depth and changing bits in router. I am in fact thinking of getting one or two of these for space concerns and like cuts get
Author:  woody b [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
For me a spiral bit works great for binding ledges. I've never had any tearout. Not counting the cost of the router or bit my tool cost.........$1 or so, and took a minute or so to make.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
The first comment I want to make about the Luthier Tool binding cutter jig is that it is the most beautifully made jig that I have ever owned - the workmanship was flawless and you are very aware that these are high precision instruments. For someone who is used to this sort of jig or has the opportunity to learn to use on on something other than your prized next guitar I am sure that they are excellent.

Unfortunately the tipping that some have reported here and the resulting divots that can happen scared me right away from this type of tool.... I understand that the tipping issue gets better with experience and use but my observation has been that since I am not a fact*ry.... I only get to do each operation on a guitar as it comes up on the current, in process guitar. As such where is the opportunity to practice if a jig such as this requires practice?

To me the entire point of using any jig at all is to increase your precision AND add some idiot-proofness to the process. If these jigs can tip in, and they can, that is one divot that I was just not willing to risk on one of my guitars.

So I got rid of mine before I ever used it based on reports in threads some years ago indicating that these things can tip. I also arranged to donate it to a student who was already experienced with this sort of jig and had addressed the learning curve.

I replaced it with a Williams jig and I will trade the small bit of inconsistency that results from an inability to have the entire guitar square for a propensity to tip and divot any time. At least inconsistent channels are not damaged tops, backs, etc.

Also someone mentioned that since the Luthier Tool jig uses a spiral down-cut bit it makes for better channels where the Williams jig can chip. In my experience with the William's jig, unmodified without the Dave White mod, I have never experienced any chipping. I make climb cuts ala the diagram on Stew-Mac's site and my results have been great.

I agree that the Dave White mod and using a down-cut bit is an improvement but to date I have been fine with the Williams jig as is.

Granted the Williams jig does require more space to store the thing when not in use but that's no longer an issue for me.
Author:  Wayne Clark [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
Thanks everybody! That is exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

Wayne
Author:  letseatpaste [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
My ideal jig would be the combo of the Williams jig with the lazy-susan trimmer mount that uses the similar adjustment and downcut bit as the luthiertool jig. I've got some ideas washing around in my brain to try to make the Williams-style jig more compact as my shop is pretty small, but for now the luthiertool jig does the job well enough.
Author:  TonyKarol [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
my first shopbuilt jigs were in the style of this one .... the one Hesh no longer owns, he donated to me and my students .. looks like this now, bigger heavy handle, as I use them horizontally, not vertically ... 4 bucks worth of aluminum, and a little /14-20 tap work ...

ypou can see my first shopbiult one on the bacground .. once you get used to these, they are great (as David has mentioned)
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
I took Tony's advice about getting more weight into the 'bottom' of the jig (it helps to counter-balance the weight of the router) and switched to using the router horizontally as well.
I realize that not everybody will have a chunk of silicon bronze rod left over from a boatbuilding project ;) but a trip to your local metal recycling centre (or metal supplier) should turn up something heavy to do the job.
I'm still thinking about building a Williams style jig but really don't want to dedicate the (working and storage) space to it, and the guitar cradle.
Cheers
John
Author:  dberkowitz [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
One tip to using these things (no pun intended) is to have the body on a rubber router mat, and in the case of cutaways, a few clamps helps. I'm right handed, so I'll explain how I control the tool. Right hand on the block with the bearings, left hand resting on the guitar body, fingers all the way at the very bottom of the base -- practically touching the surface of the guitar -- my wrist rests on the body as I cut. I use the right hand to push the bearings tight against the side, while slightly pulling the base into the guitar. Always cutting away from the peak of a curve, so from the apex of each bout or cutaway into the waist or ends of the guitar.

Contrary to popular opinion, you can get blowout from any of these fixtures. The downcut spiral bits on these are better, but they're no panacea. If you have localized runout in a side, you'll tend to blow it out on the sides. Also, I change my bits twice a year. It's a small price to pay for eliminating having to cut the channel deeper and adding purfling lines to correct for an anomaly.

I agree with the comment that the bit guard tends to pack chips. I hadn't thought of removing it, but I might give it a try -- or modify to give it a little more clearance. The reason its there is that you're putting your hand on the handle and its right by the bit. It's to protect you from routing your finger, which having done on the router table once, I don't recommend.
Author:  letseatpaste [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
dberkowitz wrote:
I agree with the comment that the bit guard tends to pack chips. I hadn't thought of removing it, but I might give it a try -- or modify to give it a little more clearance. The reason its there is that you're putting your hand on the handle and its right by the bit. It's to protect you from routing your finger, which having done on the router table once, I don't recommend.


Right, I thought about that, too (used to do a bit of safety engineering). That's where a bigger/heavier handle might help, with a little guard or something to keep your fingers from sliding up. Even as designed there's not that much keeping you from slipping your finger up there unless you're just right up against the side of the guitar. That little thing packs up with chips so quickly, though, and that downcut bit really needs good clearance.

Again, when it works it works, and it's about the most compact set up you'll find.

I'd be interested to hear from those that use the luthiertool or similar jig in a vise and move the body around it. I started that once and that was a lot more nerve-wracking to me than moving the tool around the stationary guitar body.
Author:  Wayne Clark [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
Jon,

I recall seeing one of those Taylor factory tour videos where the binding cutter was clamped in place and the tech moved the guitar body over it. He made it look so simple, but I'm sure that came from repeating the same action hundreds of times.
Author:  letseatpaste [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
When I tried it, I had trouble handling something so bulky and light (guitar body) and keeping it both firmly against the bearings and the top-side guide. Then there's the matter of needing to keep it perpendicular to the profile of the body to get the full depth cut. I'm sure it gets better with practice, but I'm a slow builder and don't turn out enough guitars to get much regular practice.
Author:  muthrs [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Luthiertool binding cutter?
I'm with David on this one. I use to do all my bindings with my homemade version of the luthiertool jig. My channels were very consistent, although i did have the occasional mishap. I then switched to the Williams jig with the White modification, since it seemed idiot proof. However, my channels are not as consistent. I am now going back and purchasing the luthiertool jig. I REALLY like the idea of using it horizontally with the guitar in my body clamp. I also like the idea of adding a heavy handle.
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