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Compensated nuts
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=30939		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Colin North [ Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:08 am ]
Post subject:  Compensated nuts
Folowing another thread, I thought it might be best to start a new one -

I've been trying compensating nuts by slanting the upper FB end at right angles to the "high" FB edge, (at the bottom edge of the zero fret position) and my ear likes the result. (I taper F/B 10 mm wider at 12th fret than the nut end, 25.34" scale length)
Anyone else trying compensating nuts?
Just wondered what others may do, if anything, apart from the "standardish" shortening of the 1st fret spacing.
Author:  murrmac [ Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Compensated nuts
Colin North wrote:
I've been compensating nuts by slanting the upper FB end at right angles to the "high" FB edge, (at the bottom edge of the zero fret position)


Colin, I am confused as to what exactly you are doing, and also as to whether you are actually using a zero fret.?

It sounds like you are lengthening the fretboard at the bass E side, but that can't be right ...
Author:  Colin North [ Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compensated nuts
Sorry to confuse you. It was badly worded.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so I'll try it. sorry for the poor drawing..
I just cut the zero fret slot from the template as a reference.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compensated nuts
Seems to me the same effect could be gotten by having a shallower angle on the saddle. The angled saddle makes the bass string length longer and that image appears to just decrease the bass length unless I am not seeing it right?
Author:  Darryl Young [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compensated nuts
jfmckenna wrote:
Seems to me the same effect could be gotten by having a shallower angle on the saddle. The angled saddle makes the bass string length longer and that image appears to just decrease the bass length unless I am not seeing it right?


Nut compensation affects the string only when it's played open. Saddle compensation affects all notes, fretted and open.
Author:  DennisK [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compensated nuts
So is the difference that fretted strings involve stretching it down, sharpening it a bit compared to an open string? And different gauges will sharpen different amounts from that amount of stretching?
Author:  Michael Lloyd [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compensated nuts
As Darryl said. The fretted string is plucked between fret and compensated saddle.
Author:  murrmac [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compensated nuts
Darryl Young wrote:
Nut compensation affects the string only when it's played open. Saddle compensation affects all notes, fretted and open.


That is just so not correct, Darryl. Nut compensation affects all fretted notes
Author:  Darryl Young [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compensated nuts
murrmac wrote:
Darryl Young wrote:
Nut compensation affects the string only when it's played open. Saddle compensation affects all notes, fretted and open.


That is just so not correct, Darryl. Nut compensation affects all fretted notes


Adding nut compensation doesn't change the distance from each fret to the compensated saddle......so I'm unsure what you mean by this. It does change the vibrating length of the open string......but as soon as the string is fretted, the postion of the nut is out of the equation. Do you see it differently?
Author:  murrmac [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compensated nuts
Darryl Young wrote:
murrmac wrote:
Darryl Young wrote:
Nut compensation affects the string only
when it's played open. Saddle compensation affects all notes, fretted and open.


That is just so not correct, Darryl. Nut compensation affects all fretted notes


Adding nut compensation doesn't change the distance from each fret to the compensated saddle......so I'm
unsure what you mean by this. It does change the vibrating length of the open string......but as soon as
the string is fretted, the position of the nut is out of the equation. Do you see it differently?



Yes, Darryl, I see it differently.

In my experience, there are two topics which raise more controversy than any other when it comes to
guitar set-ups.

The first is the necessity of using a neck jig for best posasible fret levelling results, and the other is nut
compensation.

In both cases, there is always an AAAHHH!! moment once the principles are grasped.

As far as nut compensation is concerned, I can do no better than reprint a post made by Mario Proulx on
the MIMF forum almost ten years ago. You don't mind, Mario, do you ?


..........................................................................................................................................................
© MARIO PROULX


When you compensate anywhere, you compensate everywhere.

Here's an exaggerated example to show why. Take your 6th string on your guitar, any guitar, and tune it to
pitch. Now, fret it at the 3rd fret. It likely notes slightly sharp, right? Right.

Now, without touching the tuner, slip a short length of wire(or a small nail) between the fretboard and the
6th string, about 1/8" from the nut. Now, fret the string at the 3rd fret again. Still the same, right? Right;

That';s because you didn't change the tension, therefor the pitch. BUT, the open string is now sharp, right?

Right, because the wire effectively shortened the open length(exactly like playing with a slide, when we
move the slide up, the pitch goes up). So, now we can lower the tension on the open 6th string back to
pitch, but what happened to the fretted notes? They will now be flatter, because of the reduced tension.
In reality, you wouldn't need to move the nut towards the 1st fret by 1/8", but I used that exaggerated
amount to show my point.

See? Compensating at the nut does indeed affect the fretted notes, even if a capo is used, the
compensation remains.

I've been compensating nuts since '96, and Geoff Stelling has been doing it to his banjos since the 70's
(that's where I got the idea the first time). Nothing new here to report at all.

It works, works well, but so very few understand it that it's extremely frustrating to know it works, and to
have others argue with you face to face that it "can't" work, yet they've not even tried it.

All I can say is that it works, explain the theory behind why it does(see my previous post) and let everyone
take it from there. Whether you chose to give it a try or not is up to you, the individual.
Author:  DennisK [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compensated nuts
Ah, differences in terminology. I would not call that "affecting all fretted notes". If he had tuned down a bit to where all fretted notes were correct in the first place, and only opens were wrong, then compensating the nut would correct the opens without affecting the fretted notes. So I think that makes the answer to my previous post a "yes".
Author:  Colin North [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compensated nuts
For those of you who have not seen this, this may be of interest.

http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp/index.htm
Author:  Mike Collins [ Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Compensated nuts
try http://www.byersguitars.com
he has a great presentation of this.
mc
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