Official Luthiers Forum!

This month's "Skeptic" magazine includes an article entitled "Stradivarius Pseudoscience". It explores the "enduring fiction" of the superiority of the Stradivarius violin. While not news, I'm sure, to people here, I thought you all would find interesting the conclusions of the largest double blind playing tests. I suspect they would hold true for guitars. Here they are:

- It is impossible to distinguish an old instrument from a new one by listening.
- The superior sonority of the Stradivarius and other old violins is a myth.
- There are good and bad instruments from every period.
- Sonority depends upon the player, and particularly on the bowing technique.
- The supposed superiority of Stradivari violins is based on their exorbitant prices.
- When played by an inferior violinist a Stradivarius sounds inferior.

There's a lot more to the article than the blind tests. The author covers, for example, how little of the original instrument is actually still a part of the instruments in use today due to all the maintenance that would have been required over the years, the myth of the lost recipe for the varnish (which, in fact, has never been mislaid), old wood vs new wood etc. It's pretty interesting.

Cheers,
Pat

_________________
There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

On what basis do they make the claim that Stradivari's varnish recipe was not lost?

_________________
Andrew Gamble
Sine Guitars
Custom Low-Impedance Pickups and Preamps
[url]sineguitars.webs.com[/url]

Thanks for that.

I read years ago that in blind tests with the listeners being famous, professional classical musicians, the preference
was for new instruments, not old.

I had the good fortune to attend a master class with cellist Bernard Greenhouse, he brought his Strad cello. It was truly magnificent. The purflings coming to a perfect thin point, the balance and grace of the scroll, the upper and lower bouts perfectly curved and complimentary. It is no wonder modern instruments can compare at this point, after 300 years of copying his work, we should be close by now.
When Greenhouse played this thing, like colorful waterfalls of sound, when his students played it, sounded like a wounded duck.
Stradavari made hundreds of violins, his best in his later years. So the mystery revealed, practice makes closer to perfect.

_________________
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http://www.youtube.com/user/comfyfootgr ... ature=mhee
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I tend to agree that most of the sound comes from the player. I also have a hunch that the finest instruments the world has ever known are being made by luthiers all over the world today. But I realize it'll probably be a long time before they are universally recognized as the finest. I'm involved with a classical music festival each summer, and have lots of opportunities to hear musicians from a well known symphony orchestra discussing their instruments. Most of them, especially the younger players, are on a perpetual quest for a "better", older, Italian violin or cello or whatever. I never argue with them. Tools are tools, and if they want a great tool from a noted historic maker, so be it. But I'm satisfied they could do just as well with a contemporary instrument from a great maker. A few years ago, I complimented a young cellist very highly on the lovely tone and cutting power of his instrument. He was embarrassed. He apologized for his instrument, and said it was just a "student" quality cello. If he only could have heard himself from my seat out in the house....! He was blowing the doors off the other people in his section, and there were some very fine and very old instruments clustered all around him.

I agree completely with this statement.

People used to ask me about labels at my violin shop that said . Antonius stradivarius made in czechoslovakia. I would always reply, he built them there on summer vacation. Seriously. Top flight musicians can make even the most mediocore instrument sound great. I believe that newbie classical trained violin family players have been sold a myth. Today is truly the golden age of lutherie . When I started seriously getting interested in instrument making in 1974 there were very few resources/ tools/ information. Trying to learn was indeed a struggle , especially if one was on a low budget. But today truly is the golden age of lutherie, with the internet, tons of books ,articles , dvd/s ,classes , great woodworking tools , etc. Thank you mr strad and all the other luthiers who paved the way.

I really like seeing these blind tests. There is a similar thing going on in the guitar amp world, where a lot of supposedly important factors do not pass the blindfold test. Consider our tendency to look for a hero (Jung's Shadow Projection) and also be unaware of the role of interpretation in our science (Thomas Kuhn) and it is a wonder we really know anything.

"Science progresses funeral by funeral." -Max Planck

I should add that I am not among the hyper skeptic scientific materialism crowd. IOW, there is much that is real that I do not understand. Heck, I might not really understand anything.

This thread- and others like it- remind me of the old joke about "How many guitar players does it take to screw in a light bulb?"
The answer being "Eleven; one to screw in the light bulb and ten to stand around and say 'I can do that'."
pvg

Don't you mean "do that better"?
(at least that's been my experience)

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Andy,

The author of the article cites two references to support that the recipe for the varnish was never lost. Here's some of the text from the article:

"However, even as far back as the late 19th century, more sensible heads were attempting to spike the varnish myth. The Hill brothers, pre-eminent London string instrument restorers and dealers, writing in 1902, may have thought they had dispelled "the mystery in which the subject has be involved by the ever-ready pens and fluent tongues of the many self-constituted authorities," stating that "the recipe of the varnish employed by Stradivari is still in existence. They further criticize the "erroneous views disseminated concerning [the varnish's] magical properties." A book by George Fry, The Varnishes of the Italian Violin Makers of the Sixteenth, Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centureis and their Influence on Tone, published in 1904, details exhaustively the subject of violin varnishes, in their nature, constitution, and their effects upon violin tone. At no point does Fry subscribe to lost secrets and arcane formulae."

Pat

_________________
There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

I've got to remember this one!

Thanks for mentioning this article Pat. I'll try to get the issue with that article. More pages for my pile of paper...

I was talking to a very well respected violin maker here who has done repairs on Strads and Amatis. I asked him if working on an instrument like that scares him and he said "Why would it? I can make anything on it that I would break.". He has the utmost respect for the old makers but also thinks that there is nothing magical about them. He said they are just fine sounding instruments but nothing that can't be replicated.

Pat, nice post. What is invaluable about the Strad is its age and care taken with it. In his day, he was probably one of the best makers (if not the best). They are worth the money if the owner thinks so. I bet most do.

But this does remind me of another subject that I would LOVE to see a double blind test done. Or any test for that matter. But I won't bring it up.

Mike

I think I've shared it here before, but the album, "Tone Poets" is interesting. All the tracks are recorded using the same guitar, mandolin, mics and other equipment. Different performers. Huge differences in sound.

Interesting comparison.

Mike

_________________
Mike Lindstrom

Here's a link to read this book online.

http://www.archive.org/details/varnishesitalia00frygoog

Hutch

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

I fellow luthier that I have had the good fortune of spending some time with uses what he believes to be the same finish that the old violin makers used. I have seen the work in person, and the finish is beautiful, deep, vibrant, and proof that there are some things that in the opinion of some cannot be improved upon. I've seen other comparable finishes on other instruments, but alot has to be said about a 300 year old finish technique that still holds some favor in the present day.

And a note on the double blind test. I was told that one of the reasons people pay top dollar for a Strat or Guarneri violin is that it's 300 years old, AND STILL WORKS! If a high end musician is going to pay top dollar for something that for all intents and purposes does the same thing old or new, they favor the old instruments because they know they have proven to be so well built that they survive as long as they do. If something hasn't gone wrong in 300 years...it's probably safe to say it never will.

_________________
http://www.sixgunguitars.com

I suspect that lots of things have gone wrong in the 300 years, but have been repaired.

If that is the reason they are buying a 300 year old violin then they are deluding themselves. The first part of the article in Skeptic deals with the fact that there is very little original left in the Strads still in existence. For example, there is only one existing Stradivarius with its original neck. It has been calculated that the average Cremona violin has undergone nearly half a million hours of playing and would have needed extensive maintenance. In other words, the author says: "in order to become a member of one of the most exclusive clubs on the planet, one must spend an extra $990,000 [over an equal $10K violin] or so to purchase one small shade of the ghost of Antonio Stradivari".


Pat

_________________
There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

That's a good example of how sales mythology works. The idea is out there that Strads have stood the test of time by being 300 years old and still functioning, when the truth is most have had extensive repairs.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Uh, don't you guys think that it's remotely possible that the best players in the world choose these instruments because they like the sound/playability? And isn't it at least "interesting" to note that these same instruments have been prized by the best players in the world for hundreds of years? Stradivarius violins did not just recently become regarded as superior instruments...
I find it interesting that the people who are building instruments for the discerning player are willing to stand there and say the very best players in the world can't tell the difference between great and maybe not so great instruments.
I don't put much stock in blindfold tests; I think you should give the "subjects" 3 or 4 instruments to play for 6 months or a year or so-in all the usual settings like practice, chamber, concert hall etc- and see which they prefer. C'mon, these people are MUSICIANS!! They want to make the music as beautiful as they possibly can. Do you really believe they are more interested in labels (brand names) than the music they are playing?
How many luthiers does it take to screw in a ... never mind...

pvg

The reason 99% of Strads have had the neck replaced is not that there was any need to do so for repair. It was to modernize the scale and neck angle. Most existing Strads have nearly all of the original body woods.

The varnish recipe may not have been "lost," but it has never been found, either. Tony didn't write it down. A descendant of his claimed to have found it in a family bible, but I think that was debunked. There is a difference between saying it's not a magical factor and not knowing exactly what Strad used.

The best Strads are exquisite instruments in every way. All Strads show exquisite design sense and most have great workmanship.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I've never personally seen a Strad, nor touched one, nor played one.
What I've heard is that the craftsmanship, playability, sound, and everything else are the finest in all the world, I'm sure there must be some truth to that.
I also know that Strads routinely fail blind tests against other world class instruments.
Based on this last fact, the reason Strads are so highly prized and sell fornso much money can't be the sound, it must be the prestige of owning one and the prestige is based on the cost, and the mythology of the instrument.
I'm of the opinion that, once you get over the price (IE you are not just finding a guitar that fits your budget, you're buying the instrument you actually want) the MAIN reason people buy instruments is the mythology behind it, since sound is a very subjective thing.
Even if people go down to the music store and buy the best sounding guitar they can pick out, they usually decide ahead of time what make and model, so they'll try out all the Strats, pick the best one, all the teles pick the best one, all the Pauls pick the best one etc.
I believe sound is secondary to the mythology. People will make themselves believe that whatever guitar they end up with sounds exactly like what they wanted.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I know "The Messiah" in the Ashmolean Museum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_Stradivarius hasnt been extensively played and there are documented comments of it needing to be played in to sound its best. Given the conditions it is kept under I guess it wont it wont happen. My personal thought is the player makes the difference. Compare the tones of Stephane Grapelli and Andre Rieu. Both play/ed Strads but I know who has the better sound.

For sheer artistry and mastery of the luthier trade Tony still leads the way IMO. It takes a lifetime of work this gig.

Sorry for my Off topic post but I saw Grapelli twice. Two things struck me: He could have played anything and it still would have been wonderful, and secondly, I have never seen crowds freak out more than when Grappelli played..

Regards, Peter Z