Official Luthiers Forum! http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
In regard to PVC for Dust Collection Ducts http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=31489 |
Page 1 of 1 |
Author: | Bill Hodge [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | In regard to PVC for Dust Collection Ducts |
This article is a very good read for all who are interested in the subject of small home shop dust collection and PVC ducts. |
Author: | Daniel Minard [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:59 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: In regard to PVC for Dust Collection Ducts |
Thanks for posting the link Bill. A good read. |
Author: | Bill Hodge [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:39 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: In regard to PVC for Dust Collection Ducts |
Howdy Filippo, Certainly some good questions and thoughts on your part in regard to the article, thanks for raising them. On the matter of his article, I agree with your thoughts on the things you brought up and in fact, in regard specifically to emptying the collector daily, I think it was a suggestion to the fearful minded. He seems to do that a lot in the article to err on the extreme side of safety. For years, I've emptied my collector when the bag (clear poly) is visibly about half full. Mainly because it becomes quite heavy after that point. That would amount to about once every 6 months. ![]() I am by no means an expert or a scientist in regard to static charge and the explosiveness of concentrated dust (or not). Through many years of use of dust collection in both private and industry, I do know that I have never personally experienced any explosions or flash fires. I have however heard of them in grain mills but not in cabinet or furniture shops small or large. My experience covers over 3 and 1/2 decades and I know of some in here that have much more than me. I hope to hear (especially from those professionally or with longevity) who have experience and or factually supported knowledge in regard to this matter. He cites the 10 references at the bottom of his article but I have not endeavored to investigate further due to very limited time on hand. Thus the reason for activating this discussion in which I hope to find many interested enough to participate and opine. ![]() Here are the references he offered; Quote: References:
Boschung, P., Widmer A., Hilgner W., Luttgens, G., Maurer B.: An experimental contribution to the question of the existence of lightning-like discharge in dust clouds. Journal of Electrostatics, vol. 3, no. 4, Nov., pp. 303-310, 1977 Crowley, Joseph M. : Fundamentals of applied electrostatics. John Wiley & Sons, Inc., 1986 Economou, George: Electrostatic generation while tank washing and ignition of hazards of fuel air mixtures. Master Thesis in Navel Architecture and Marine Engineering, MIT, 1975 Glor, M.: Discharges and hazards associated with the handling of powders. Inst. of Physics Conf. Ser no 85, section 3, pp 207-216, 1988. OSHA (1997): OSHA hazard information bulletins: Improper installation of wood dust collectors in the woodworking industry. Information date 19970502 OSHA (1996): OSHA hazard information bulletins: Fire and explosive hazards associated with the biosolids derived fuel (BDF) and waste water treatment plants. Information date 19960408 OSHA (1988): OSHA hazard information bulletins: Static electricity buildup in plastic pipe. Information date 19880903 Ptasinshi, L.: Identification of hazards caused by static electricity in dust chambers. Journal of Electrostatics, vol. 17, issue 3, pp. 313-320, 1985 Schwenzfeuer K., Glor M.: Tests to determine the ignition of dust by brush discharges. Journal of electrostatics, vol. 30, issue May, pp. 115-122, 1993 Thomas, G.O., G.L. Oakley: Studies of the sensitivity of explosive dusts to ignition by electric sparks. Propellant, Explosives, Pyrotechnics, No. 15, pp. 201-207, 1990. |
Author: | Bill Hodge [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:05 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: In regard to PVC for Dust Collection Ducts |
Exactly Filippo, thus the reason for this hopefully to be active discussion. I would like to hear from those who have scientific knowledge or data on this (if there is any). As I mentioned above, I empty my dust collection bag when it reaches half full, about 1 time every 6 months. I also use PVC ducting and have no fear of fires nor of explosions whatsoever unless someone can convince me otherwise with hard factual data. Thanks for being a part of this because I greatly enjoy your intelligent and inquisitive thinking! |
Author: | Eric Reid [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:03 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: In regard to PVC for Dust Collection Ducts |
Bill--Thanks for posting this link. It confirms what I'd seen elsewhere, but it does a more thorough and convincing investigation than the things I'd read. The author's credentials add some credibility too. Fillipo--I can't agree with your criticism. He follows the impractical advise about daily emptying, with what sounds like a very practical suggestion: have a metal dust bin with a metal lid, and put a sprinkler above it. You'll notice that these suggestions have nothing to do with the theoretic possibility of a dust explosion. They are aimed at preventing a smoldering fire that might break out at night while you were sleeping, a fire that might be caused by any piece of metal hitting a fan blade, or by a spark from a grinding wheel. He sights two real cases of this happening. It happened twice in my neighbor's shop. |
Author: | Billy T [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: In regard to PVC for Dust Collection Ducts |
The genii at the Pentagon have been working on dust bombs for years. Just because of grain fires being so destructive. Do we have a dust bomb today.... no!!! The parameters of dust explosions are so specific that it's almost impossible to meet exactly...unless.... in a grain mill. As for changing out the dust collection...very good idea! I've seen one smoldering dust fire from somebody throwing a "thought extinguished" cigarette into the dust collector! Yes! The boogie man does exist! PVC initiated explosions? Nevah hourd of it! And I've used PVC for decades in work and at home! It's safe, it's convenient and it has a great tap tone! ......Huhm!!!! ![]() |
Author: | Billy T [ Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: In regard to PVC for Dust Collection Ducts |
Tell the DoD http://www.defense.gov/pubs/dod101/ A dust fire is pouring a little flour on a candle in your kitchen ....a dust explosion blows your kitchen to hell! ![]() |
Author: | Bill Hodge [ Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: In regard to PVC for Dust Collection Ducts |
Todd Stock wrote: Raise your hand if you've dropped a warehouse with flour and the right stuff to make things go bang. Those with hands up know that dust initiators work just fine. I'm also thinking that those with their hands up understand that getting the correct mix of air, dust, and an expanding flame front in a duct is a much more difficult problem. 'zactly!!! |
Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:02 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: In regard to PVC for Dust Collection Ducts |
The guy who works down at my local Woodcraft used to be in the military as an explosives expert, he told me when I was setting up my system that it wouldn't be a bad idea to ground myself when using my dust system, based on his knowledge of explosives. |
Author: | Bill Hodge [ Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:14 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: In regard to PVC for Dust Collection Ducts |
Filippo Morelli wrote: I've heard wearing a aluminum foil hat is a good idea. Filippo ![]() ![]() |
Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: In regard to PVC for Dust Collection Ducts |
If you keep your fingers in your ears, that way, your head will explode! Never mind the dust collector! ![]() |
Author: | WudWerkr [ Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:53 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: In regard to PVC for Dust Collection Ducts |
There is about 30 miles from my house an old fella who has a woodshop. he builds cabinets and odd stuff . In his PVC dust system about every 6 feet he ran a standard 1/4" bolt through the pipe and tightened it down , under the head of the bolt he ran a piece of wire that runs the entire length of the system and that wire is grounded . No shocks , no sparks , no problem . Solution? dont know , works for him. BTW Filippo , is that a self portrat ? ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |