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The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Fun Topics
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Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Fun Topics
I recently bought some 10 boards of soft maple, 5 to 5.5 bft each (6" wide x 10'+ long) for a toy box project. Used Sketchup and Cutlist for Sketchup to design it (all freeware). The wood cost $250 (tax excluded), about $4.50/bft. I actually recall cringing when I heard the total. On the way home, I got to thinking about guitar wood costs per bft. For a back & sides set, I came up with 0.85 bft (estimate, 9" wide backs, 24" long, .2" thick, 5" sides, 36" long, .2" thick). Now, divide that into your price. Nice $200 B&S set comes out to $235/bft. Build my toychest out of that and the price mushrooms to $12,942!!

Turns out I got a good deal on the soft maple.

Mike
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Such Nonsense
Just mention the word guitar...or musical grade.....and to the moon scotty!
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Such Nonsense
I used to have the same concerns Mike, until I started to do more of this. Here is an example, a while back I bought 1,000 bd ft of 16/4 Honduras Mahogany. I had to buy the lift to get the price I did (which was still 3 times higher than I was buying single boards of 1" for in the '80's). Only about 2/3 of it will really make guitar wood. Worm holes and crazy grain, full rift sawn and end and side checks, things like that are rejected from the instrument wood pile. Next, the guitar pieces are pretty specific sizes so that limits recovery in a big way because I can't buy the wood in widths of 5.5" and 8.5" multiples or lengths of 34" and 22" multiples. Next, because the guitar wood is so thin nearly half of what is finally sawn into sets is sawdust, yet it was paid for in the rough board state. All of this plus the labour to collect the wood, examine it, saw it, dry it, store it really makes the price more than fair. I laid out many thousands of dollars for this Mahogany and it will be over two years before I see the return on that investment (my wife reminds of that regularly!) and it will come back in dribs and drabs, a few sets sold here, the odd neck blank sold there, etc. So at the end of the day it is not a huge money maker (I am actually afraid to the accounting for fear I will never do it again!).

This is just another perspective! On the spruce note, I recently paid $12,000 for two logs. So the raw material is just going out of this world as well!

Thanks

Shane
Author:  douglas ingram [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Such Nonsense
I hear you Shane!

It really is an eye opener when you have to cut thin stock and high grade it.

This was brought home to me very clearly a few years ago. I use White Cedar for my canoe building. When I started locating my suppliers, I tries one who gave a very good price, but I had to pick through a very disappointing pile of wood to get anything usable. When I was milling it half of it when into the cutoff box right away, then half the rest went into sawdust. Of the finished pieces, a lot of time was wasted working around the defects.

Lots of wasted time and material.

Its cheaper for me to pay 3-4 times as much for higher grade raw material, then just work it. I still have to puzzle it out to get the cuts that I want, but there is almost no wastage of material or time! I now have a supplier who can supply decent stock and is happy to work with specialty builders. Its a 5 hour drive away and I still have to drop $1,000 at a time, but its worthwhile.

Standard lumber is easy to prepare. You drop the log on the mill and cut away. Zip, zip, zip.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Such Nonsense
I kind of suspected that my post would come across as a complaint about the price of guitar wood, and it was not intended as such. I surely get the fact about guitar wood being the best of the best and it takes a lot of effort to get to it (and represents a small fraction of the available wood). It IS worth it. Moreover, I was simply drawing comparisons between my toybox price and my other hobby. Thought it might make for interesting Monday morning gabbing.

Carrion. [:Y:]

Mike
Author:  douglas ingram [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Such Nonsense
I didn't take it as complaining. Just putting the value of our materials into perspective.
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Such Nonsense
But on the other end of that equation would you pay $3000 for a toy box?
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Such Nonsense
Clay S. wrote:
But on the other end of that equation would you pay $3000 for a toy box?


There is a buyer for everything. Even a $3000 toybox.

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/droolici ... -ever.aspx

laughing6-hehe
Author:  John Arnold [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Such Nonsense
Quote:
For a back & sides set, I came up with 0.85 bft (estimate, 9" wide backs, 24" long, .2" thick, 5" sides, 36" long, .2" thick).

If you are dealing with 4/4 lumber, the numbers are a bit different. Since it is rare to get six slices from 1" thick (particularly for the back, which is generally cut thicker than sides), the normal yield of bookmatched pieces is four.
That means that with your dimensions for a dreadnought set, two sets requires 2.75 board feet, or 1.375 board feet per set.
Still expensive per board foot, but when you figure the time cost and blade cost of resawing, the numbers make more sense.
Thicker lumber may yield a bit better, but thicker lumber also costs more per board foot, because of the increased drying times.
And as Shane pointed out, culling from lower grades increases the cost, sometimes dramatically. I have seen a big decline in the quality and availability of tropical hardwoods since I became a full-time luthier in 1985. The quality of mahogany available today is nowhere near what it used to be, even as recently as five years ago.
As a reference, check out the instrument grade billets at Gilmer. In many cases, the board foot cost is in excess of $50.00. And that is for wood that normally is less than $15.
Author:  Hupaand [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Such Nonsense
On a different forum guys were comparing the costs of their hobbies. Guitar building isn't so bad if you look at race horses, boats, int'l skiing, etc. I used to do scroll saw, it was a bit cheaper.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Fun Topics
I see the problem now... my title sucked. :shock: I changed it to convey more closely my intent.

Filippo, nice find...

BTW, if you have never tried Sketchup (and even the free Cutlist pluggin) I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how fast you come up the learning curve. For any useful design work, you have to use components and groups as opposed to subtractive modeling.

Mike
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Such Nonsense
Hupaand wrote:
On a different forum guys were comparing the costs of their hobbies. Guitar building isn't so bad if you look at race horses, boats, int'l skiing, etc. I used to do scroll saw, it was a bit cheaper.


You forgot wives & kids wow7-eyes
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Fun Topics
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Hey Mike that toybox design needs a rosette and some purfling :-)

Filippo


It's getting some inlay work.... Off to run. Got in the Barkley Marathons (Google "Why We Compete" and Barkley, look for a Washington Post Article. Heck, Google Barkley Marathons and Mike O'Melia to see what happened to me the last time I tried this)

Later.

Mike
Author:  forgottenwoods [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Fun Topics
Just curious....

If you got all the wood for free would you lower the sales price of your finished guitar?
Or would you sell it for the market value based on what it is and not what it cost to make?
Author:  Ian Cunningham [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Fun Topics
I don't really think it matters. I've calculated the cost for many a guitar and it usually comes out to an avg of 300-600 to make at a liberal estimate (no boutique tuners or wood, middle grade stuff that's readily available). I think the median cost for a guitar made by someone who does it for a living is maybe 4-6 grand. Divide that by the cost of wood and the cost for materials comes out to less than ten percent. By this very rough estimate we can assume that the cost of materials doesn't play that large a part in the cost of making a guitar. The customer is paying for the service, and a good bit of the profits keep the luthier's shop, equipment, house, car, family, and all other expenses going. I could be completely and totally wrong and I invite anyone who disagrees with me to correct me.

In my current situation however things are different. I offer to make someone an instrument and after contemplating how much the materials will cost I tack on 75% of the materials cost to make the thing. Comes out about 60/40 cost to profits ratio. That will change as my instruments get better. I just wanted to show you how much of a difference there is depending on how serious one is about building.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Fun Topics
If I got the wood for free, I would charge for the value of the wood. But thats me.
Author:  forgottenwoods [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Fun Topics
Mike O'Melia wrote:
If I got the wood for free, I would charge for the value of the wood. But thats me.


[:Y:] As would anyone running a business.

Next question applies directly to the thread topic.

What value would you charge?
$5.00 per board foot (the value at the local lumber yard)?
or
$235 per board foot (the value from a tonewood supplier)?
Author:  forgottenwoods [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Fun Topics
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Which reminds me - Lance, how's your yacht? :-)

Filippo


The yacht? She is sweet! Here's a pic taken when she was new.
We had her built mostly out of Spanish Cedar, better ram tone than Mahogany.

Image
Author:  Ian Cunningham [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Fun Topics
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Did Ian use the word "profit"?

Filippo


Haha yeah, let's get fiscal! [xx(]
Author:  nickton [ Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Price of Guitar Wood and Other Fun Topics
there's a guy selling hand made guitars on Ebay starting at like $399 or something. I don't know how he can afford that. They look well made too. I wonder what the hourly wage would be on that?
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