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Recurring nightmares... the same stage, the same problem
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Author:  Frank Cousins [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Recurring nightmares... the same stage, the same problem
OK... still not far down this road only on numbers 3 and 4... but I seem to struggle with the same problem each time... binding and perf channels... mistakes galore [uncle] , fills me with dread as usually things have gone OK by that point - or at least OK for a newbie, but when I see the perf cutter - It freaks me out... wow7-eyes palms sweat and I am convinced before I even start its going to be a fast track to making kindling... I am sure its developing into a phobia.

Any one have a any suggestions as to how to over come this (ir)rational fear? idunno

Does anyone else have a problem that recurs again and again at the same stage? :evil:
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Recurring nightmares... the same stage, the same problem
I have a phobia at every critical stage of the build, and often need several days of pause until I have the rounds to do it. What helps me avoid massive messups is to double and triple check all the steps to come, measure and then some more of that, and of course, recall what went wrong the last time and try to avoid it the next time.

How do you cut them? I use a LMI cutter and I find it to be near perfect. You can't go wrong if you follow a few basic rules: extremely sharp blade, always climb cut, zero pressure (which causes fibers tearing) - instead multiple light passes, and always keep is close to a true tangent (otherwise you end up with too wide channels). The chisels used to cut out the waste need to be very sharp as well. To set the cutting depth I use feeler gauges (add or take the width of the blade). Fish glue, it stays open for ages and sticks even nasty oily wood.

Whatever you do, don't rush it. I assign at least a full weak when I do more complicated purfling. I might be a laughable snail, but the end result is good (if I may say so myself) and that is what matters in the end.
Author:  DennisK [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Recurring nightmares... the same stage, the same problem
I also use gramil and chisel for binding ledges. Those router setups look scary, in addition the fact that I have no room for one (and a lot more expensive on top of that). It's actually pretty fun and not scary at all with the gramil.

I'm only on builds 2 and 3, but so far my recurring problems seem to be cracking a purfling strip while gluing it into the rosette, and gluing a binding strip on the fingerboard not quite flush with the bottom. And on this one, I managed to get it shifted into place while the glue was half dry, but apparently it has a small air gap or something because makes a slight buzz when tapped... Don't know if it would happen once it's glued to the neck, but I probably ought to peel it off and try again.
Author:  Frank Cousins [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Recurring nightmares... the same stage, the same problem
Hi

Apologies for not responding sooner...busy with the day job... Thanks for the interest, tips and sharing the knowledge.

My problems tend to begin with the cutter - I initially had problems because of distortions in the sides - and perhaps not completly scraping these true before attempting cutting the channels... I have sort of addressed this, but the fear is still there and I struggle in using the cutter so that the cuts remain parallel to the edge...

Next when routing, despite following the directional code and not going against the grain, I am still getting chip out, and the cutting depth is not equal - most likely due to subtle thickness issues on the top....

I do 'try' and be patient... taking several graduated passes, but am so stressed out by this stage, a router 'wobble' is not uncommen wow7-eyes

I dont ahve one of those routing contraptions - I have been trying to do learn how to do as much as I can with minimal tools - to learn the dark arts so to speak, before using more machinery etc... not through any issues with using technology, but simply because its fun to do so and its kind of like like learnig the principles before progressing onto machines.

I've read teh books, watched the tutorials and even ahd expert guidance from a pro...yet I think this has now progressed into a phobia eek

Its why I asked if anyone had similar issues with one particular stage and how you may have overcome the 'challenge'

Its not deterring me, just making me more determined to become more skilled - I appreciate there are no short cuts to experience and learnig the subtle skills, but I am in danger of sticking a fair bit of nice (and not cheap) tonewoods on the fire as I simply wont be happy with poor results... tip, hints, psychological help all greatly appreciated! [:Y:]
Author:  Tom West [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Recurring nightmares... the same stage, the same problem
Frank: You have touched on one of the things that can bring on anguish.That is the amount of experience we have with processes we are uncomfortable doing. Even folks who build full time don't realy get a lot of experience cutting binding ledges. Maybe 12 or so guitars a year.Hard to get around this problem. You indicated that you registered your router off the side and top.I do the same and find that the sides have to be flat and ripple free to do a good job. The first cut I only take about .025 -.030 of a cut to help prevent blowouts. The second cut is to full depth. Very sharp cutter bits are quite important.Not sure how slight differances of top thickness would cause varying depths. I assume you mean varying sizes in the large dimension of the cut.My feeling would be that the router is riding up a small amount as you are focused moving the router or what you are using to register with the top is slipping over the edge a slight amount. I find that most time I have to run over spots to clean up a bit. Even then I examine the ledges very carefully and do very slight touch ups with chisle and/or small file. Not much help here as some is repeat of your own doings. Good luck and keep at it.
Tom
Author:  Steve Davis [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Recurring nightmares... the same stage, the same problem
Frank
I am in a similar boat still trying to find my best way
My conclusion from recent efforts is which ever way i go
I have to find a way of holding the box down securely in the right place for me to work
whichever tool i am using. It sounds obvious .......but
I have found myself struggling to see the work...hold stuff in place etc etc
This is taken care of with the routing Jigs but less obvious for the hand tool builder
Author:  Frank Cousins [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Recurring nightmares... the same stage, the same problem
Hi

Thanks again. The problem with depth seems to be that the router plate is not sitting true(flat) to the body all the way round, in the tight areas due to the top radius and in others simply due to variations in the thicknessing process as this is done by hand... so I guess I know the theory of what is going wrong, and can look to work on those areas as I get more experience of this... but its the 'fear' factor that creeps in and makes the whole thing more stressful. As I mentioned, so far getting to the point where the body is closed is relatively stress free and so with things looking good, the tension builds - I find myself putting it off and focussing on the neck say or doing everything possible to avoid cutting binding and perf channels! :shock: :( :evil: :lol: (have to laugh)

I know its a case of practice - and I have practiced on waste material - but its not the same - when it comes to binding its like going into teh final round of the Masters with 4 stroke lead and doing a McIlroy! :twisted:

Ironically, fitting the perfs and bindings, cutting nice mitres etc is one of the most fun and rewarding...

So all psychological help much appreciated... :)
Author:  Colin North [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Recurring nightmares... the same stage, the same problem
Hi Frank, any chance of a photo of your routing setup for the bindings including body "restraint"?
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Recurring nightmares... the same stage, the same problem
If you are holding the laminate trimmer and going around the guitar I strongly advise to build (or purchase) a Ribecke-type jig (the one with 2 drawer slides and a guitar carriage). John Hall at Blues Creek sells one, StewMac sells an aluminium one.
Stress will disappear instantly. As has been pointed out a sharp cutter is mandatory. Personally I climb cut all the way and don't do the silly StewMac dance. If I feel the wood is particularly brittle and has the potential to blow out, I do a few light passes until the required depth is achieved. That is especially true for a wide purfling channel on the top.
Author:  Frank Cousins [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Recurring nightmares... the same stage, the same problem
Hi Colin ( Oh and thanks Laurent)

I dont ahve any photos - as no currently at this stage with the current build - Typically, the body has been carefully clamped to the bench - although not ideal, its been stable so is not moving or in theory contributing to the problems.

I appreciate that everyone has their own 'what works for them' approach, but am still looking for mine! I will check out the jig mentioned and welcome any more thoughts on the the process/steps that seem to work for you.

Thanks again for all the help, much appreciated.

Frank
Author:  alan stassforth [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Recurring nightmares... the same stage, the same problem
I use my Sloane style cutter for the initial cuts,
then use a router with a bearing bit, clean up with the Slaone.
It's still time consuming, and hard on my hands.
Every time I do it that way, when done I tell myself to build a binding/router jig.
I'm thinking about the design where it's mounted on the wall.
Takes up less space.
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