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Will this Work?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=31773		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Ian Cunningham [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Will this Work?
I bought this neck blank online and am not sure about the grain on this thing. I'm worried that since the neck will be long and thin, like a bouzouki, or banjo, the grain may mess with it. I was planning on putting an ebony insert in there about 1/2 down by 1/4 wide. That's a substantial part of the neck so I think it may be enough to counter that, but I wanted to get more experienced opinions.

Ian
Author:  JasonMoe [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
It looks like a swirly fretboard. I would'nt use it.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
That would make for a very unstable neck.
Author:  Ian Cunningham [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
I'm getting more and more discouraged with this piece. With reinforcement, it may work, but I can't afford to settle for that. idunno
Author:  DennisK [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
Definitely looks iffy, but maybe not too bad if you can keep that majorly curvy end out of the main shaft, and just in the headstock or laminated heel (and rotated to where the grain follows the neck line). But either way, I'd say use something else for now, and let that one sit around for a while in a non-humidity controlled area. Check with a straightedge now and then, and if it stays straight in various conditions, call it good.
Author:  Ian Cunningham [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
Thanks Filippo and everyone. I actually bought this for $30 which is quite a bit of money for me right now, but I can make two necks with a piece this size so I guess if you split it that way not so much. Fortunately I'm almost 100% I can get my money back and exchange it for something more suitable. Just got to be more clear as to what I need. If anything I'm glad I was able to keep from messing with the piece and get an unstable neck with it. Making an instrument is way too much of an effort for that.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
Wood education is expensive. But less than using sub-par materials for building.
When I look at what's available on eBay, I get scared: anything and everything is sold as "musical instrument wood", most of it not even suitable for fine cabinetry.
At the beginning I would advise buying from a reputable vendor, and ask questions.
Author:  Ian Cunningham [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
A good friend of mine who's been doing this a while is suggesting I orient the piece so that the grain runs parallel to the headstock like the picture shown below, so that the grain runs as if it were flat sawn. He says if it's reinforced with hardwood like ebony It should prove stable enough. I'm obliged to trust the guy and I figure worst case scenario I'll just take the neck off the instrument and make a new neck if I feel I need to. I'll at least have something cool to hang on the wall. I'll also be using an ebony fingerboard so that should help too. It all adds up to me and I don't have too much to lose, so I'll just go ahead with it. I'll let you guys know how it all works out.

Thanks,

Ian

Forgot the pic duh
Author:  Dave Rickard [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Laurent Brondel wrote:
At the beginning I would advise buying from a reputable vendor, and ask questions.

Sage advice!

Filippo



yes it is
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
Ian Cunningham wrote:
A good friend of mine who's been doing this a while is suggesting I orient the piece so that the grain runs parallel to the headstock like the picture shown below, so that the grain runs as if it were flat sawn. He says if it's reinforced with hardwood like ebony It should prove stable enough. I'm obliged to trust the guy and I figure worst case scenario I'll just take the neck off the instrument and make a new neck if I feel I need to. I'll at least have something cool to hang on the wall. I'll also be using an ebony fingerboard so that should help too. It all adds up to me and I don't have too much to lose, so I'll just go ahead with it. I'll let you guys know how it all works out.

Thanks,

Ian

Forgot the pic duh


That orientation is not much better. There is still a lot of short grain that will affect neck stability. But sounds like your going ahead so all I can do is wish you luck.
Author:  Ian Cunningham [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
I appreciate your concern. My friend has over sixty instruments completed in about eight years and has been building necks this way for a while.
Author:  alan stassforth [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
If I wanted to use that, I would mill it sraight (if it isn't already),
let it sit around for a few years,
then see what it's going to do.
A skinny banjo neck should be very straight grained, IMO.
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
It's fine for practice wood IMO. You can spend a lot more on a neck blank.
I wouldn't have purchased it, though.
Author:  nickton [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
I would think you could make a decent two piece neck by cutting it down the middle and gluing it together so that run out edges go into each other. Some builders like I think Petros advocate two piece necks to help counteract warping tendencies. Don't know about thin banjo type necks though.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
I have a bunch of short pieces of wood that I want to glue together on the end grain to make a longer piece for a neck. Do you guys think that would be a good idea?

Oh, and if you tell me it's not a good idea, I'm going to do it anyway.
Author:  DennisK [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
Yeah, the board's not that bad, especially when turned on its side. And if the friend has seen it in person, I'd give him more credit than all us looking at photos. The runout will weaken the neck a bit, but ebony reinforcements should help. I'd still watch it for a while though, to make sure any movement is in line with the neck, and not a twist. But anyone who uses their brain to make a good instrument from imperfect materials gets bonus points in my book, for saving a tree.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
DennisK wrote:
Yeah, the board's not that bad, especially when turned on its side. And if the friend has seen it in person, I'd give him more credit than all us looking at photos. The runout will weaken the neck a bit, but ebony reinforcements should help. I'd still watch it for a while though, to make sure any movement is in line with the neck, and not a twist. But anyone who uses their brain to make a good instrument from imperfect materials gets bonus points in my book, for saving a tree.

Amazing…
What I can see: the board has runout on two faces. String tension will want to warp it in the direction of the runout(s).
There is nothing wrong with the way a neck can be built up on the diagram, nor with laminating by a flip bookmatch. However, common sense dictates that whichever way you want to build your neck, you should use stable stock and straight grain with no or minimum runout. Ebony reinforcement will not stabilise unstable stock, ebony itself is everything but stable, it may even compound the problem. I fail to see how it will save a tree since the board is already cut… Make a uke neck and sides, a box or something nice with it, but not a long neck.
All that for a piece that's, what, $20? Go to RCTonewood or Hibdon and buy a straight, seasoned $30 neck blank…
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
Decreasing the odds of failure is a practical, proactive step towards success. I don't see what can be learned here. If you make the neck and it warps under string tension, you'll learn not to do that....today. But if you make the neck and it doesn't warp it could create a false confidence that grain direction doesn't matter much....and it will surely bite you later in a situation with potentially higher stakes....then you'll worry all the guitars you made in the meantime if you used runout wood like this on them.

I don't know whether or not you are trying to sell guitars, Ian. That sort of mitigates my attitude about this. I can see rushing past obvious, potential pitfalls like this is to gain the experience of a total methodolgy...to see the bigger picture. For instance, if you were inexperienced at making necks this would be fine wood to practice shaping, gluing, fretting...ect. But I wouldn't consider using that piece for a neck that was going on a guitar....even on a guitar that I was building for myself.

Given the number of variables involved with building guitars, it seems wise to take all possible steps to improve your odds of success.
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
Barry Daniels wrote:
I have a bunch of short pieces of wood that I want to glue together on the end grain to make a longer piece for a neck. Do you guys think that would be a good idea?

Oh, and if you tell me it's not a good idea, I'm going to do it anyway.


Having a bad day Barry?
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
Ian Cunningham wrote:
I don't have too much to lose, . . .


Only if your time is worthless. You are the best judge of that.

I can't understand how people are even offering comments on this thread, other than to say that this does not look like decent neck stock. There are no dimensions given, no description of how the piece is oriented in the two photos, nothing about how it was dried or where on a tree it came from, and not even what species of wood it is. I can't tell if the idea is to stack a heel and scarf a headstock, or if the piece is thick enough for a one-piece neck but it doesn't show in the perspective of the photos.
Author:  Don Williams [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
I'm with Howard. We don't even know how thick this is. But IF it's plenty thick to be able to turn it into a neck, you could consider adding some laminations and carbon fiber. I'm doubting that it's going to move much with all that in there, but it does happen. The key as I see it is to do as one person suggests and let it sit in the shop for awhile and see what it does. If you elect to go with laminations, then slicing into it is going to let you know pretty quickly if there are internal stresses that are going to wreck it down the road. Badly stressed wood will take off very quickly when you saw it in half. I've seen straight boards curve instantly in two or three directions.
Next time, buy your wood from a reputable dealer rather than an unknown online dealer. Stick to the sponsors here and other reputable dealers and you can be much more confident about this stuff.
Author:  Frank Cousins [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
Fair bit of stress on this thread... I cant comment as dont have anything near the xperience to judge that piece of wood or what it might do... but my question would be: would or could this be used successfully as part of a laminated neck?
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
Frank Cousins wrote:
…but my question would be: would or could this be used successfully as part of a laminated neck?
As I and others have tried to point out, the question rather is: why would you? Is it the last mahogany board on the planet?
Author:  Kim [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
Laurent Brondel wrote:
Is it the last mahogany board on the planet?


I doubt it, if it was I reckon he would have paid more than 30 bucks even if it is crap...I mean look at the majority of BRW floating about these days...but then why would you bother.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will this Work?
Well, perhaps I was a bit mocking.

I spend a bit of time on this and other forums and really enjoy answering questions, especially for novices. It brings me some joy to provide what I think is useful information and seeing folks use this information can be quite satisfying. But occassionally people ask questions with no intention of accepting answers they don't like. It seems somewhat disrespectful and discourages me from further participation.
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