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Graphite reinforced neck
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=32399		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Graphite reinforced neck
Hi All - Would inlaying graphite reinforcement strips it the neck affect the function of the truss rod? With the neck being stiffer, would truss rod adjustment be more difficult, and also a greater chance of stripping the threads?

Alex
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Graphite reinforced neck
I notice no change in any of the Bass guitars I've built using graphite. Truss rods still do their thing as is intended. Besides, truss rods are for very very minor adjustments if they get even remotely close to stripping threads then there are bigger fish to fry.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Graphite reinforced neck
I haven't tried it yet, but I've been thinking about doing it.....you could probably dispense with the truss rod entirely.......that's what I intend to try. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's done this also.

Dave F.
Author:  Josh H [ Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Graphite reinforced neck
I have been using two 1/8" CF rods on either side of the truss rod for a little over a year now and find that it still functions normally. I think the added stiffness and stability is well worth the little extra time and cost it takes to install the rods.

Josh
Author:  Chris Pile [ Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Graphite reinforced neck
I liked to have both on new construction. The truss rod functioned normally.

Once repaired a broken Music Man bass neck by adding 2 carbon fiber rods in lieu of the broken truss rod. Planed in a little relief before finishing and refretting - worked great. Still being played 25 years later.
Author:  Pat Foster [ Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Graphite reinforced neck
I use both too. Doesn't seem to have an effect on the TR.

Pat
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Graphite reinforced neck
Dave Fifield wrote:
.....you could probably dispense with the truss rod entirely.......that's what I intend to try. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's done this also.

Dave F.


Curious why you would want to get rid of the truss rod? It takes an awful lot of CF to make up for the potential stiffness of a truss rod and you lose the option of adjustment. And it's hard to keep necks from creeping over time, even if they are stiff.

After having to tell repair customers that the only fix for their terrible action is an expensive re-fret instead of a truss rod tweak, I would have to have a compelling reason to go without one.
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Graphite reinforced neck
I notice a beneficial sound difference when I do without the adjustable truss rod and any guitar not for a customer (i.e, one I may end up with!) I leave them out. The few that have been around the longest have not shown any neck issues but that certainly is not proof that it is always a safe move. I would have to really trust that the client understood the possible ramifications to make a commissioned guitar without one but if I felt they did understand I would expect it to sound and feel a bit better. Please don't ask me why, I have no idea. I would even have a hard time explaing what sounds and feels better about it. I know that is annoying but in this case it is true.

As to Alex's question, I agree with what has been said. I don't notice any problems using the truss rod to make adjustments in necks where I also have CF.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Graphite reinforced neck
I've been using two 1/8" x 3/8" carbon bars plus the LMI TRSD rod for 8 years (lately the Allied rod). I now run them across into the headstock. That seems to make the neck considerably stiffer compared to stopping at the nut.
You have to get a feel for how much tension to put on the rod for fretboard leveling. If I level with no tension on the rod the guitar may not pull into enough relief when strung up and require reverse truss rod tension. This can be a problem with 12 fret short scale necks.
Author:  tlguitars [ Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Graphite reinforced neck
Terence Kennedy wrote:
I've been using two 1/8" x 3/8" carbon bars plus the LMI TRSD rod for 8 years (lately the Allied rod). I now run them across into the headstock. That seems to make the neck considerably stiffer compared to stopping at the nut.
You have to get a feel for how much tension to put on the rod for fretboard leveling. If I level with no tension on the rod the guitar may not pull into enough relief when strung up and require reverse truss rod tension. This can be a problem with 12 fret short scale necks.


This helps to answer my "Help for fun" question. Thanks Terry!
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Graphite reinforced neck
I rarely use CF rods, and when I do I notice the truss rod (Allied) has less effect than without the CF rods, which makes sense. It still works though and most of the times I don't even need to adjust it.
If you want to build without a truss rod, compression fretting is the way to go IMHO. Or put a serious amount of CF in the neck, maybe Burton can describe his method for this. Two 1/8" CF rods won't do it.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Graphite reinforced neck
Hey Laurent, since Martin's 1833 shop stopped selling fretwire with variable tang sizes I have not been able to find another place that does. Do you have a supplier or do you just use a fret tang expander to get the compression.
Thanks
Terry
Author:  Tom West [ Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Graphite reinforced neck
Alex: My experience using CF rods is quite similar to Laurent. Stiffens neck quite a bit and harder to adjust for any great amount but adjustment is quite often not needed or very little required. I would never build again without using CF to suppliment the adjustable truss rod.
Tom
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Graphite reinforced neck
I will comment again here, Laurent is right, I would not trust 2 rods alone, especially put upright near the center of the neck. When i do without the adjustable truss rod I run 2 3/8 tubes down the sides with the taper of the fingerboard and as far out as possible so the bottom of the tube is close to the surface of the neck. I also put another piece of CF, ideally a 3/8 rod on its flat side as low in the center channel as possible. I have used other stuff, steel beam, even more CF, but those are the things I feel I must do. I will say i do most of this even on guitars with an adjustable truss and like has been said, never really need to tweak the rod on setup exept to snug it to avoid any possible rattle. I also fret before installing the FB and I want the FB to be dead flat before putting it on, even with the frets installed. I press these in with hide glue and the board is plenty stiff and stable on its own. I also put the slightest back bow in the neck shaft before gluing on the FB and then epoxy the FB on with a straight edge clamped on top of the FB. It has been working very well for me but, as always, I am sure there is more to learn.

The neck I am working on now is Spanish Cedar (nice medium weight Hibdon cedar) and I am not using a rod. The neck without the tuners is so light, I think it will be great.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Graphite reinforced neck
Terence, I would use bar frets for compression fretting, not T-frets. I still have a good amount I bought from CFM years ago (I don't think they carry it anymore), otherwise I heard TJ Thompson has the good stuff now. For T-frets maybe John Hall knows?
The F.Ford crimping tool works on T-frets up to a certain extent, probably enough for most cases.

The amazing thing about bar frets is that when they're in, the fretboard wood can not compress anymore: it has nowhere to go. Pre-war Martins with bar frets have only an ebony rod for reinforcement, it makes for a very stiff, but light neck.

Re-CF rods: on tilt necks I use the Rick Turner method of dadoing the CF rods into the neck AND the fretboard. It creates an incredibly stiff structure, much stiffer than dadoing them only in the neck stock. I made a POC neck like this last year (with a walnut fretboard, out of all things) and I didn't have to touch the truss rod, at all.
Author:  Andy Birko [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Graphite reinforced neck
I've not tried this myself but, from an engineering strength perspective, the best place to put a CF rod would be at the back of the neck. So, a couple ideas I had:

1) Cut a truss rod slot like you normally do but make it as deep and as wide as you dare. Lay a strip of CF flat on the bottom of the channel and then fill in the channel with some wood.

2) Do something that looks like a skunk stripe in Fender necks. This would be the strongest arrangement but probably the most difficult to make.

Again, I haven't tried this myself but strictly from an engineering statics perspective, those locations would give you the most bang for your buck. Although putting rods right under the fretboard is easiest, it's the least effective use of CF. Not saying it doesn't work, just that the same amount of CF in the locations I mentioned will make the neck much stiffer than at the "front" of the neck.

CF works best in tension. With a load like a neck has to get the most strength from a piece of CF, you want to put it as far away from the "neutral axis" of the neck on the opposite side of the load.

Final asterisks - everything of course has to be balanced. A neck that's too stiff or not easily adjustable might not be the way to go. Ease of manufacture is also an issue. In idea #2, I can't really think of a good way to shape the neck once the CF is installed and the transition from headstock to neck will also be difficult.
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