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| Author: | Daniel Minard [ Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | EM 6000? |
Just wondering if anyone has experience with this new finish from Target. Here is part of the blurb from the Woodessence web site; -"EM6000 is a unique water-based lacquer that generates 100% burn-in regardless of the age or cure time of the previous coat. The clarity, depth-of-image and buffability of EM6000 is unlike any other water-based lacquer currently available."- I ordered a quart to experiment with, but any tips or advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Dan |
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| Author: | two dogs [ Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
I finished an ukulele with the 6000 a little over a year ago and it's holding up just fine. Didn't notice any 'bluish' cast to the finish. It seemed really clear. I filled with zpoxy then shot shellac, then the 6000. It took about 2 weeks to pass the fingernail test before buffing. I did notice some witness lines while sanding, but they went away when buffed. Target has it's own finishing forum, here.... http://www.targetcoatings.com/forum/vie ... fe46533225 . Very helpful. Some observations. I had to play around with the HVLP gun settings to avoid getting bubbles in the finish. More air and less finish volume seemed to help. This stuff likes to go on when it's hot and dry. Sand with dry paper to help avoid witness lines. Wait longer than it says before buffing. That's all I got. All in all I thought it was a viable alternative to VOC filled finishes, although I've not been compelled to use it on a next one. Good luck, and please keep us posted on your results. Attachment: UKE_0070..jpg Steve |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
I've used it on 3 guitars, all are holding up just fine. I find that it's about double the price of a gal of nitro though which is tough to swallow. I'd like to see someone try it out on African blackwood to see if there is any of the bluish hue to it. I got that on an EIR body I used it on, but I don't know if it's still visible after 2 years....as I haven't seen the guitar since it was delivered. As far spraying and rubbing out, it just as good as nitro in my experience. Buffs out well too. Now, this is an evaporative finish which means that like shellac and nitro it burns into the previous coat to form one final film of finish. YOU SHOULD NOT EXPERIENCE WITNESS LINES AT ALL WITH THIS TYPE OF FINISH! Yes, I yelled that because it's the truth. Two Dogs, are you sure that you were getting witness lines? Witness lines only happens with reactive finishes which build layer after layer of finish and the witness line are when you sand down an area cutting into a lower layer of finish... You can get witness lines by sanding through nitro down to the sealer coats but then you have sanded to a different finish product (if using a sanding sealer, not thinned nitro). I like to lay down thick coats and I'm pretty aggressive with my sanding and if witness lines were possible with an evaporative finish like EM6000 I'm 100% sure I would have gotten them with my aggressive rubbing out of the finish. Also, there have been many threads here about the EM6000 if you want to do a search... |
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
Steve - that Uke is gorgeous!  Daniel - I don't have experience with non-water based nitro, and have only used 6000 on one build, and some test work I did prior. That said, I've found it very easy to work with and like it a lot. Give it a try on some scrap wood to get a feel for it, and let us know what you think of it. Charlie |
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| Author: | Daniel Minard [ Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
Oops. Guess I shoulda checked the archives. Thanks for the responses guys. Rod; With a much higher solids content than Nitro, I would think there's be an overall cost savings, despite the price per gallon. Am I wrong there? (again???) Cheers! Dan |
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| Author: | weslewis [ Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
I have used it on 4 guitars so far and love the stuff..the 12 string I posted is finished in em 6000...although my techniques constantly evolve what I do now is shoot 20 coats without level sanding, only scuffng as necessary with scothbrite..obviously if you get somthing in the finish it has to be sanded out, then level sand after 20 coats ...on one guitar I started level sanding with 800 grit , wet sanding, but got a sand through and have since started with 1000 grit then 1500 then 2000 then buffing with menzerna medium and fine...I usually shoot 8 coats on two days then 4 to finish, waiting at least 30 minutes between coats , then wait at least a week before leveling and buffing as per instructions of at least 150 hours. I have been using a inexpensive harbor freight hvlp conversion gravity feed gun at around 50 to 60 psi with a 1.3 mm tip to spray and works great , I tried a smaller gun but the gun would clog a little ..one trick is to get enough finish on per coat, its easy to shoot to light a coat , when it gets just a little milky its about the right amount....and so far I have yet to get a run!  I love this stuff, easy to use , even easier to clean, and best of all its safe..I do use a respirator when spraying though... I am on my second gallon so far, so I am guessing with overspray and other waist you can expect about 3 finishes per gallon... one other thing is to drop fill as necessary |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
Daniel Minard wrote: Oops. Guess I shoulda checked the archives. Thanks for the responses guys. Rod; With a much higher solids content than Nitro, I would think there's be an overall cost savings, despite the price per gallon. Am I wrong there? (again???) Cheers! Dan Well, spraying is spraying. I think you have good spray techniques Dan, and my guess is that you'll still need 12+/- coats for a good finish, which is what I did for the 3 I've done as well as when I shoot nitro.... This is based on my limited use of one gallon of the stuff. I did get three guitars done with one gallon, I stripped one of them and reshot though so if I didn't do one of them a second time, I would have got 4 guitars out of a gallon. I can get the same out of a gallon of nitro... |
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| Author: | Parser [ Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
Per one of the recent threads on this finish, it seems like most people are spraying 18-20 coats with this finish. It goes on at about 1/4 mil to 1/3 mil per coat. So, 20 coats gets you about .005 to .007 thick before sanding & buffing... It's good stuff, and much safer than nitro. Like all finishes, it takes good prep & good finishing techniques to make it really shine! As one of the downsides, I would not consider this a production finish for a large shop, due to the number of coats you have to spray. Trev |
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| Author: | Ken C [ Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
EM6000 is good stuff. I have used it on 7 or 8 guitars. I usually spray 10 to 12 coats on the top and 15 to 16 on everything else. Love it. As others have said, lots of info in the forum. Ken |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
It is not a new product, as many of us have been using it for almost 2 years. I don't know about "production" shops... the tack time is 30 minutes, so 20 coats can be done in 10 hours. And considering that it is thoroughly cured in a few days, you are still way ahead of nitro. I have one waiting to be buffed. I wet sanded (with mineral spirits) all the way to 4000 (800 and up were micromesh ROS pads). I have a sneaking feeling that since the buff will be a small effort, I will see little blue since I have thought buffing heat might be a contributor. As for cost, yes, but, they always have 30% discount coupons on their site, you just have to know it and search for them. Plus, the added cost of ventilation and safety equipment needed for volitile finishes makes, in my mind, volitile finishes more expensive. Not to mention the risk of poisoning and explosions! Cost should be looked at from the big picture, not just the base material itself. The more I use it, the more I love it. I have come up the learning curve and find that approach is key. Mike |
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| Author: | Ken Jones [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
I loved working with this finish. I got three guitars (plus a ukelele) out of a gallon. Much more forgiving than other WB lacquers I've used. That said, I can see a very slight bluish (actually purplish) cast on the darkest areas of a darkburst 000 I did recently. For that reason, I'm moving towards a nitro setup. |
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| Author: | dmorg57 [ Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
Hello Mike, I am going to start spraying em 6000 this weekend or next. I know that you have posted your schedule before, but it seems like you have it pretty well dialed in. Would you be kind enough to post your finishing process one more time? Many thanks in advance, Dave |
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| Author: | Andy Birko [ Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
I'm not Mike but here's a link to my finishing schedule. The only differences are slight adjustments to the gun (which will be different for you anyway) and I don't level sand half way through anymore. http://banduramaker.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... uitar.html |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
Not sure how unique or useful this is. First, epoxy pore fill. Wait till epoxy starts to thicken, then scrape well. Sand back to wood, locate any trouble spots, repair with epoxy using sane gel and scrape technique. Next one or two coats clear shellac, sand off nibs Apply 6-7 coats on day one, at 30 min intervals. Repeat on day 2 and 3 Cure for a few days. Start wet sanding at 400 grit, 600, then progress up to 4000 grit. Mineral spirits. If at any stage, u notice sand through, stop. Apply 6-8 coats, and start sanding process over. Buff. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
Oops double post |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
I have a theory that over buffing can enhance blue haze. I will let you know if I get positive or negative results. I have observed that others who claim no blue gaze use less aggressive buffing techniques. Coat thickness is important too. Try to stay under 20-25 applications. I do not recommend wet sanding with water! But I do very little dry sanding. Again, the heat issue. Finally, Ur final finish will only be as good as Ur surface prep. No pores. None. Or u will spend endless fruitless time trying to fix it. Good luck!  Btw, Rod True is a real expert on this finish. Mike |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
I've had the blue hue before I had a power buffer and was just buffing by hand. I don't think it has to do with heat from buffing, rather thickness of finish which might be softer (less cured) at a deeper level....but this is just my guess. I think it would go away over time, but I've not seen that guitar for 2 years so I really don't know. I've also only noticed it on EIR, the other two guitars I finished were Maple/Cedar & Hog/Spruce and neither of those showed any signs of a blue hue to them, even on the ebony head plate or bindings on the Maple/Cedar guitar. |
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| Author: | metcalfguitars [ Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
Rod True wrote: I'd like to see someone try it out on African blackwood to see if there is any of the bluish hue to it.  African Blackwood= NO bluish hue EIR=Slight bluish hue (a darker set or EIR) EIR= No blue (lighter wood) Macassar Ebony=No blue Ziricote= No blue Black Chacate=No blue Cocobolo=No blue BRW (very dark)=No blue BRW brown=No blue black walnut=No blue Some of the above multiple builds. I've done numerous other light toned woods but have only seen the blue tone on the one EIR of the darker variety. I've done other EIR without issue. I'm not sure the root cause, but these are my results to date. Tim |
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| Author: | Ken C [ Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
Rod True wrote: I've had the blue hue before I had a power buffer and was just buffing by hand. I don't think it has to do with heat from buffing, rather thickness of finish which might be softer (less cured) at a deeper level....but this is just my guess. I think it would go away over time, but I've not seen that guitar for 2 years so I really don't know. I've also only noticed it on EIR, the other two guitars I finished were Maple/Cedar & Hog/Spruce and neither of those showed any signs of a blue hue to them, even on the ebony head plate or bindings on the Maple/Cedar guitar. I'm with Rod on this. I believe the blue haze comes from too heavy of coats sprayed too closely together. I spray no more than 4 coats a day, and often don't spray for a day or two in the middle and have had no issue with blue haze. Although the finish will usually buff well after 100 to 120 hours of cure time, it will continue to shrink. The longer you can wait prior to final leveling and buffing, the better the odds of the finish not sinking back into pores or seams. Some time ago I posted a toot over on John Halls forum: http://www.kitguitarsforum.com/board/vi ... =19&t=1113 You have to be a member to see the pix, but you can read it without signing up. Ken |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
Ken, that is an excellent point, one I will employ. Not hard to add 2-3 days to the schedule. What is your max count before sanding? Mike |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
Tim, if u don't mind me asking, what is your max coats per day, and max overall coats before sanding? And do you employ any specific cure time before sanding? Mike |
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| Author: | Ken C [ Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
Mike O'Melia wrote: Ken, that is an excellent point, one I will employ. Not hard to add 2-3 days to the schedule. What is your max count before sanding? Mike Mike, I usually spray the first 6 prior to the first leveling to avoid sanding through, and I never sand the edges until the very end using 1000g paper for the same reason. I shoot for about a dozen on the top anD at least 15 on the back, sides, and neck. I always dry sand with good quality sterated papers. Ken |
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| Author: | weslewis [ Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
this one was done with 6 to 8 coats per day 30 to 45 minutes between coats, came out clear...if i remember the humidity was around 35% or so ...I wonder if humidity might have something to do with the blueish tint??? I waited at least a week before level sanding and buffing.. |
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| Author: | Daniel Minard [ Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
Wow! Lots of great info here. Thanks guys! Can't wait to get some test pieces done. I'm set up for nitro, but am getting more & more sensitive to the fumes. Or, more likely, the skin contact, once the thinners softens my nitrile gloves. I'm surprised it takes so many coats. I usually spray right on the edge of a run, so I may need fewer... The tests should tell the story. Thanks again, folks. Dan |
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| Author: | Parser [ Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EM 6000? |
I think humidity can cause the bluish tint to temporarily appear. I've had finished bodies that were clear turn slightly bluish after a drop in humidity. I guess there was excess moisture in the finish that had to evaporate out, and the bluish tint was the result of this gassing out? Trev |
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