Official Luthiers Forum!

I am building a new model for me. It is a not-to-big Jumbo. The lower Bout is 16-1/4 and the body length is 20-1/4.

On my SJ model I do not tuck the lower x-braces. I am going for a sound similar to the SJ, mainly finger style but holds up ok to a pick. Maybe a bit more bass on this model?

Should I tuck or not tuck? Does it matter?

Thank you for your kind consideration.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

To do or not to do.
To be or not to be.
Does it matter? Ya right.


Do what thou wilt...is your wood and your shop.
So...
$hite or get of the pot.

Ok lets get serious...is like dis...when you come to a fork in the road ~ take it! Then you will know.

Simple eh.


blessings
?adma


PS: Say hi to Jerry Brown for me. Thanx


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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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I don't tuck the lower x's on anything....

So basically it will matter very little if at all?

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

I do it to help key in the top and as insurance for those who like to tap (pound) on the top.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

Same here.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

me not...

Yes, it matters.

Joe: I think the importance does not lie in whether you tuck or not, as much as how high the tuck is where it enters the lining. I tuck all the time on the lower X just to register and keep the height of the brace at a minimum. This lets me locate during gluing and provides some insurance against the drummers. With this in mind my ends are no higher then about .050" at the lining. I have done ends quite a bit over this and after building loosened up the plate and improved the sound substantially by lowering the height at the ends. Just my experience with the whole thing.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

What Tom said.

Mike

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Mike Collins

Interesting. So you tuck primarily for a little added strength? How would you say it affects the sound? Seems like a none tucked brace would make the top slightly looser giving it a little more bass response? Is the difference negligible?

Padma,
I gave Jerry a call and told him you said hello. He must have been confused. He just said, “Is he out already?”

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

I tuck when I am after a particular tight sound. Otherwise, feather that lower X about a 1/2" frm the lining.

The rule I've always used is that, if the braces are not shaved away to nothing for some distance in from the edge, you need to inlet them. Braces usually run at least somewhat across the grain of the top, and softwoods are a lot stiffer along the grain than across. A brace that's anywhere near as tall as the top is thick will tend to be stiffer then the top at that point. If the brace is not inletted, and somebody knocks the top over the brace with a microphone, say (I know YOU would not do that, but it happens...) the top will bend and the brace will not. This puts a lot of peeling stress on the glue line, and glue is not good at that, so the brace will tend to peel loose.

Back when I did more repairs I used to get in old Gibsons with loose or missing upper transverse braces. They used to scoop out the very end of the braces over a short distance with a sander, just about down to nothing. Rather than cutting pockets for the brace ends, they seem to have simply mashed everything down with clamps, counting on the brace end to compress the liner the small amount that was needed. Since both the bracing and the liner were spruce is happens every so often that the liner will be harder than the brace wood, and it's the brace end that gets crushed. This essentially severs the brace end just inside the liner, and eventually, with the download on it, it peels loose. In a couple of cases the player found the stick rattling around inside the box, and tossed it out. Then the action got really high....

The bottom line, then, is that whether you inlet the ends or not doesn't depend so much on the static load on the brace as it does the relationship be tween the brace and top stiffness. Of course, an UTB, which does have a pretty good down load on it, needs to be taller at the end, and you may be able to shave the lower ends of the X braces down to the point where you won't need to inlet them, due to the nature of the load they carry. But once you've shaped them to carry the load, whether you inlet them or not depends on the geometry.

Thanks Alan. That makes sense.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

You mean like this?

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Great pic, that totally illustrates it. VERY Gibsonesque. :0

Oh, and to at least try to add to the discussion, I Inlet the X-brace at all corners, but I only really do it to the bottom legs because I like to use the notch for indexing the top when gluing. Otherwise, I'd probably taper then down to nothing, like folks above say. I do taper the tone bars and finger braces down to nothing...I guess that's pretty standard.

This a good pic of an ugly situation.

Mikey, There is something to be said for using the lower x notch as a guide. When you are in a hurry to get the top clamped while the glue is fresh it can keep you out of trouble.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Joe, esp w/ hide glue. The pucker-factor is highest when gluing the plates onto the rims. For me, at least.

Why would you ever want to use notches in the linings purely for indexing purposes when there is a much simpler and more effective method ?

I am indebted to John Arnold for this insightful contribution on another forum, and I hope he does not mind me reproducing it here ... it is sheer genius in its simplicity and effectiveness IMO ...


and again, (edited this time to protect the innocent ... )

I use round toothpicks. Same principle but I snip the excess off with flush-cutting dikes after they're installed and just leave them in.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Lately I've been thinking about doing what Trevor does in his book and Notching out completey. Whenever I route the bindings I expose the brace end anyway.

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Old growth, shmold growth!