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When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
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Author:  DanKirkland [ Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
Just curious as to what you gentlemen think of this situation.

I've got a client that seems to be bouncing between me and another repairman locally. The guitar in question has a severely twisted neck, so much so that with the truss adjusted to keep the bass side flat I can easily slide a quarter under the high E at the 7-8th fret when checking the relief, relief on the bass side is slightly higher than 10 thou. Truss works just fine, neck is just warped from decades of passing seasons.

A few months ago the customer wants to get it fixed and brings it in to me. I advised a refret/replane of the fingerboard (badly needs a refret anyway). Customer got a second opinion but was chiding me for saying the neck is twisted because this other tech seems to think it's just something that the truss rod can adjust. I didn't fight or anything and let the customer make his choice. The other repair guy called to talk to me about the guitar, we actually had a good conversation but it ended with him basically telling me I was wrong (albeit politely).

Cue to last week, customer comes in again and the problem is still there. The customer is still convinced that it's just something that can be adjusted with the truss. I advised the customer that my opinion is still that the guitar needs a refret and to have the fingerboard leveled. The customer disagrees and has this other tech call me again and try to convince me it's a truss issue. I respectfully disagree. Customer called the other tech and tried to have him explain it to me again. I explain my position and nothing changes his mind etc... It ends up that the customer decides to let me do the work since the other tech's solution didn't work. Work is done and the customer was very pleased.

Problem came when the other tech called for a completely unrelated reason (he needed a part that I had). He asked about the customer and the guitar in question. I was up front about what I did but avoided insulting him or chiding him for his suggestions. He got very upset that I ended up doing the work, we ended the conversation. I find a nasty email in my inbox detailing a bunch of weirdness about me undercutting him on a repair and questioning his skills. I simply told him I was sorry for offending him and it wasn't my intention to do so. So far I haven't heard back from him.

I've known this guy for a while so I really didn't want to lose a friend/contact over something like a disagreement.

My questions:

1. When you disagree with another tech on a repair, what's your advice to keep the relationship good between the tech/customer/yourself?
2. Should I have done something different on my end? turn down the repair when he came back the 2nd time?
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
With 'friends' like that who needs enemies?
Author:  James Orr [ Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
My thought is that if you wouldn’t have responded the same way, it’s about him and not you.

It sounds like you responded professionally, and that’s the only thing you can do.

In my field I’d have an ethical obligation not to work on the guitar without clear notice and some formal action from the other guy that he had no further plans to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Jim Watts [ Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
For me the mistake was stepping in it in the first place. If someone does't like my assessment they can have the other guy do it and I'm out of the picture and happy as a clam (btw: how happy is a clam?). No need to convince someone like that that your right.
Author:  B. Howard [ Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
DanKirkland wrote:
1. When you disagree with another tech on a repair, what's your advice to keep the relationship good between the tech/customer/yourself?

2. Should I have done something different on my end? turn down the repair when he came back the 2nd time?


This very much depends on the situation..... My thoughts on this situation are:

Client sounds like a bit of a PITA, how much do you want/need their business? Simply being too busy to work on their stuff is often a nice soft solution that keeps them from badmouthing you all over town. And guys who play this shop against shop thing usually find themselves on the too busy list here. When client called the other tech to put him on the phone with me after already having had that conversation ..... He would have been thrown out and instructed point blank to take his gear elsewhere! He obviously doesn't think I know anything....End of story. I have a list of names and numbers of people who are not welcome here for similar offenses.


When the client had the other tech call me to explain, and he actually did that..... we would be done. That breaches all sorts of professional etiquette in my mind. I would never call another local shop at the behest of a customer to explain to them how to do a job. I may contact them in regards to previous repairs they have done that aren't working to suggest a different approach but never in a situation remotely close to what you lay out. The fact that he now blames you for basically stealing a job he said didn't need done is really bizarro too and another clue I don't want to deal with this person.

Dealing with musicians is difficult enough without drama like this.....
Author:  DanKirkland [ Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
Jim Watts wrote:
For me the mistake was stepping in it in the first place. If someone does't like my assessment they can have the other guy do it and I'm out of the picture and happy as a clam (btw: how happy is a clam?). No need to convince someone like that that your right.


That's definitely what I should've done. Technically the client came to me first and got a quote for a refret and re-plane and then went to him. I think you're right though I should've just cut it off at that point and gone no further.
Author:  DanKirkland [ Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
B. Howard wrote:
This very much depends on the situation..... My thoughts on this situation are:

Client sounds like a bit of a PITA, how much do you want/need their business? Simply being too busy to work on their stuff is often a nice soft solution that keeps them from badmouthing you all over town. And guys who play this shop against shop thing usually find themselves on the too busy list here. When client called the other tech to put him on the phone with me after already having had that conversation ..... He would have been thrown out and instructed point blank to take his gear elsewhere! He obviously doesn't think I know anything....End of story. I have a list of names and numbers of people who are not welcome here for similar offenses.


When the client had the other tech call me to explain, and he actually did that..... we would be done. That breaches all sorts of professional etiquette in my mind. I would never call another local shop at the behest of a customer to explain to them how to do a job. I may contact them in regards to previous repairs they have done that aren't working to suggest a different approach but never in a situation remotely close to what you lay out. The fact that he now blames you for basically stealing a job he said didn't need done is really bizarro too and another clue I don't want to deal with this person.

Dealing with musicians is difficult enough without drama like this.....


Thanks for the advice sir. This whole weirdness is definitely my fault for not cutting it off sooner. I have told quite a few people to not come back but I like the idea of keeping a permanent "Too busy" list. I need to start doing that.

One thing I would like your input on is when you call other shops about previous repairs. I have run across some (alot) warranty work that I do want to talk to some of the other shops about. But honestly I have a hard time thinking of a way to talk about their work without sounding accusatory.
Author:  Pat Foster [ Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
This sort of thing is what soured me on repairs. But I’m starting to miss the income.

Dan, I think you went above and beyond out of concern for the client. Sometimes it doesn’t pay to be the nice guy.
Author:  DennisK [ Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
jfmckenna wrote:
With 'friends' like that who needs enemies?

lol, my thought as well. How much was the other guy even planning to charge the customer for the few seconds it would take to turn the truss rod screw?
Author:  Chris Pile [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
In 40 plus years I've only had one local repair guy (who was very good) call me about a repair, which I admit was ugly but workable. He didn't like the finish touch-up I did (it was dayglo pink), and I agreed it looked horrible but the truth was the kid was playing every weekend and needed the guitar. He couldn't wait while I ordered the special mix of paint, and then a pro finish touch-up. He had $50 to pay for the repair, so I did the work, applied a quickie touch-up with an artist brush (I told him it would never match) and took his $50. The other luthier understood perfectly.
Author:  B. Howard [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
DanKirkland wrote:
One thing I would like your input on is when you call other shops about previous repairs. I have run across some (alot) warranty work that I do want to talk to some of the other shops about. But honestly I have a hard time thinking of a way to talk about their work without sounding accusatory.


Again it's a case by case thing. Shops and techs I have good relationships with are a simple matter of a phone call to the effect " Hey, I just had a guitar you worked on come across my bench and have some questions...." But regardless always start with questions! This invests the other tech in the work right from the start. Go the other way and start on a more authoritative note and the interaction will be confrontational and neither of you will benefit.......You may think you know the deal by what you see before you but you really do not.

One of the first questions I always ask is did you make repair "X"? (never assume anything no matter what the client says!) and they will usually tell you about the situation they faced and what they did. More often than not I find their course reasonable for the situation and simply let them know how it failed and why I think it did. If I have any wisdom to share I do and sometimes I pick up something from them even if it is what not to do. I am also not ashamed to admit I have received this call at least once or twice over the past decade.

In the case of a shop or tech I do not know I approach much the same but will generally start via e-mail stating I have an instrument that they may have worked on and have a few questions and ask them to give me a call to discuss. I never go into any real details, not even what instrument or client in email. This has the potential to go very badly quickly and give written words to be edited, twisted etc. This avoids any confrontational first impression from/for either of us. If they do not call it weeds out a lot of the techs where this conversation would never go well no matter what. And if they do call you know they are interested enough to want to improve at some level.

Guitar repair is a service and as such is a "people" business.... The guitars are secondary most of the time.
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
Hi Dan,
I think you handled things appropriately. You remained the "Adult" in the situation and didn't do anything to antagonize the other parties involved. I don't have a problem with people questioning my proposed solutions to their problems (at times I question them myself! :lol: ) and if they want to seek advice elsewhere I'm not offended. That the client tried the suggested lower cost option I still wouldn't be offended by - everyone likes to save a little money. That it didn't work and he brought it back to you to have the necessary work done was because you didn't insult him for wanting a second opinion or trying the simpler option first. When the client talks to others about who fixed the problem and who didn't your patience with him will pay off. That the other tech is a bit of a hot head and expresses his displeasure lets you know how he felt about the situation. It's more his problem than yours, and ignoring the insults is probably the best option. Those people tend to re-friend you whether you want them to or not.
If the client really is a PITA then maybe putting him on the "too busy" list is not a bad idea, but unless you actually are too busy you might want to make that a short list. (the people that deserve to be on that list you could send to your luthier "buddy", and let him know you're sending him work laughing6-hehe ).
Again I think you handled things as well as they could be handled.
Author:  Ernie Kleinman [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
I agree with clay , you did the right thing. I would never speak to that luthier again. He sounds immature, and could potentially cause you future problems by being jealous and badmouthing your work.My 2cents worth.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
'Work is done and the customer is very pleased.'

End of story. Everything else is a distraction.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
Looks like you got some good feedback from the trusted advisors in the group.... so now I’m going to ask a question. :)

It seems the debate is centered around if a truss rod adjustment would fix it or not. It seems that either tech could have adjusted the rod and showed the customer with feeler gauges that the neck was still twisted. Is there a reason not to just “show” the customer they are mistaken on the actual issue?

I’m truly interested.

Brad


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Author:  B. Howard [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
bcombs510 wrote:

It seems the debate is centered around if a truss rod adjustment would fix it or not. It seems that either tech could have adjusted the rod and showed the customer with feeler gauges that the neck was still twisted. Is there a reason not to just “show” the customer they are mistaken on the actual issue?



Things to consider;

Could the customer comprehend what you are saying and showing? To a vast section of the guitar playing public truss rod adjustments are a form of voodoo.

When the second tech did exactly that and the problem remained , the client clung to the adjustment theory....... demonstrating that lack of depth of knowledge and an unwillingness to see it differently..

Not to mention a half hour of adjusting measuring and explaining all the while under interrogation from a customer is not any fun under the best of circumstances. Which is something I advise against for many reasons.... . Add to that a client who doesn't get say basic geometry & math or has poor eyesight and it is a nightmare for all involved.

Aside from that it sets a bad precedent that any time this person walks in you will immediately stop and work on their guitar.

In some cases you can set yourself up for that phone call that goes "... you showed me how to adjust that truss rod and now it's....(broken, stripped, neck cracked, take your pick)...."
Author:  Ernie Kleinman [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
Brian exc pts. and a potential can of worms. The subtitle should be reworded . How to avoid problems with customers/luthiers
Author:  Conor_Searl [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
I'm confused, why was it so important to this customer and the other tech that you understand how misguided you were? It seemed like they were putting an awful lot of energy into convincing you that what you were suggesting was unnecessary or wrong. Which is strange because couldn't the customer just go with the other guy, the other guy do the work and that's that? Obviously in the end the cheaper solution didn't work, and you end up with the guitar anyway, but all that back and forth between you and the customer, and the phone calls with the other guy in between? Those seem like the kind of red flags that if I were in your shoes would tell me I don't want the work from the client, or to deepen the relationship with the other tech.

It seems to me that you got sucked into a three way conversation where you weren't really given a full voice. Who knows what the other tech was hearing from this customer about the way you presented yourself and your position. For instance the other guy was frustrated that you undercut him, but how could you undercut him when you were suggesting different jobs and yours was the more expensive option? I don't think you have the full story here.

I'd say its worth carefully considering who this tech is, and who he is in the community around you. If he's got a reputation for being unpredictable, challenging to work with, or his work is sub par then maybe the damage is done and you just put your head down, quietly go about your business, and let your work speak for itself. But if he's a respected and established member of the musical community and these kinds of interactions are not normal, then I'd say its worth chasing him down and doing the post-mortem on what went down, be quick to own your part (and we always have a part) in the break down, and figure out a way to move forward.

Perhaps this is a good moment to revisit your pricing as well. If what you're charging is much lower than what is typical in the area you live and work, it might be good idea to raise your prices. This could be a source of frustration for your peers without you even realizing it.
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
"Perhaps this is a good moment to revisit your pricing as well. If what you're charging is much lower than what is typical in the area you live and work, it might be good idea to raise your prices. This could be a source of frustration for your peers without you even realizing it."

Whatever became of the much touted "free market"? I think price fixing is a little bit illegal. If a person can do the same work for less (and is legally in the country gaah ) then so be it. Often they find that in the long run they can't, and they either raise their prices or go out of business.
Author:  Conor_Searl [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
Clay S. wrote:
"Perhaps this is a good moment to revisit your pricing as well. If what you're charging is much lower than what is typical in the area you live and work, it might be good idea to raise your prices. This could be a source of frustration for your peers without you even realizing it."

Whatever became of the much touted "free market"? I think price fixing is a little bit illegal. If a person can do the same work for less (and is legally in the country gaah ) then so be it. Often they find that in the long run they can't, and they either raise their prices or go out of business.


Isn't price fixing where a bunch of people get into a room and decide together what things are going to cost?

I do agree though Clay. And I'm not suggesting that everyone should adhere to the same pricing structure. But in my experience when it comes to an industry that is about offering a service, our insecurities can often dictate pricing rather than it being a strategic and intentional choice. I'm not saying this is what's happened here with Dan, but it is something to consider. When everyone around you charges $39 for an oil change, but you're brand new, feel a bit like a fraud, or that you're not worth what the other guys charge so you charge $29, that's just bad business for you and everyone else too. If however you've weighed the pros and cons, and decided that for strategic reasons you're going to enter the market at the lower price point that's great, and a totally valid choice, although with it's own set of unique ramifications.

Several years ago I took a small business program, the two best pieces of advice I received were this; first, be open, honest, and assertive, and the second had to do with pricing. For many people getting into business our guts turn pricing into a moral issue, we view asking for more money as a bad thing, and look at making personal sacrifices to be cheaper as the noble thing. But the reality is pricing is neither good nor bad, and we need to realize that it will define our market share. If you charge the cheapest you get clients that put a priority on low costs, if you charge a lot you're going to get clients that have different priorities. Is either group better than the other? Nope. But we should always make informed choices, and be intentional about putting plans into place that get us where we want to go, and put us in a place to serve those we want to serve.

Of course when it comes to pricing we have to be realistic too, charge too little, you get real busy but can't pay the bills, you charge too much and you've got nothing to do, and can't pay the bills. We want to pay the bills. :D
Author:  DanKirkland [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
bcombs510 wrote:
It seems the debate is centered around if a truss rod adjustment would fix it or not. It seems that either tech could have adjusted the rod and showed the customer with feeler gauges that the neck was still twisted. Is there a reason not to just “show” the customer they are mistaken on the actual issue?


A good question.

He was shown the issue the first time he brought it in. I think initially it was sticker shock (I quoted him 275$ for the job. 250 for the refret + new nut and 25 to level the board) that made him go to the other guy for a second opinion. Now whether he understood what I was showing him is an entirely different issue. I'm inclined to think he had dealt with the other guy before but just didn't tell me. There is also a major age difference between myself and the other guy. I'm 30 with a baby face and he's easily late 60s, so it could've been he just didn't like that I had a different solution? No idea.

Conor, regarding the issue of who the tech is. He's been in the area for a long time (decades). He's known to alot of folks but honestly after having talked to some other guys locally he's not known for great work. I'm not going to try hard to develop a working relationship with him since it's clear he is not in an amicable mood. For reference one of the first jobs I ever saw from him was a refinish job on a PRS SE he did. The whole top was sanded cross grain with 80 grit and then shoe polish was rubbed into the roughing marks. Finished over with a brush of clearcoat and charged the guy 500$.

As far as what I'm charging it's pretty much the same as most of the other guys in the area excluding GC which is always the cheapest but you have to deal with the GC level of work.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
Quote:
Could the customer comprehend what you are saying and showing? To a vast section of the guitar playing public truss rod adjustments are a form of voodoo.


Brian is correct. Most of the guitar playing public is ignorant about how a guitar works. I've had clients thinking the truss rod adjusted the angle of the neck to the body. Some couldn't see the bow in the neck even when you pointed it out. Educate them the best you can, and if they choose to remain stupid... well, you can't fix that.

And as for the other guy, he was a moron. Best to let him hang himself with his own rope.

Unless he works for Ninth Circle of Hell Music (Guitar Center), in which it's OK to point out that he is a troglodyte. I recently told both the clowns working at my local GC that if it was in my power, I'd cut off their hands (such a diplomat I am).
Author:  WudWerkr [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
As soon as he brought it back "unfixed" and contacted the other guy I would have politely shown him the door and suggested I didn't want to work on his guitar . However I don't do this for a living . The Other repairman had NO ISSUE pointing out he thought you were wrong . Frankly , I wouldn't bother trying any harder , he has the problem .
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
"Unless he works for Ninth Circle of Hell Music (Guitar Center), in which it's OK to point out that he is a troglodyte. I recently told both the clowns working at my local GC that if it was in my power, I'd cut off their hands (such a diplomat I am)."

Chris,
I think most of us understand you are a man of great tactfulness. laughing6-hehe
Author:  Chris Pile [ Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When luthiers/repairmen disagree (seeking advice)
You forgot compassionate....
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