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| using ozonator to remove offending smell inside guitar http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=52107 |
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| Author: | stebinus [ Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | using ozonator to remove offending smell inside guitar |
It was suggested to me in another group to put an ozonator inside my guitar to remove offending smells. I did this for several hours along with porous packets of charcoal and rice and it may have helped. In that same group someone mentioned that a friend had used an ozonator to remove a vinyl smell in his car but after 2 weeks the ozonator had caused the vinyl to actually deteriorate. Does anyone have thoughts on how an ozonator might affect the glue joints or the wood inside a guitar? I was told by a factory rep that the glue used was Titebond Genuine Hide Glue. Thanks. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: using ozonator to remove offending smell inside guitar |
Listen, I’ve noticed a few things about your limited posts here on the OLF. First, you should feel welcome to ask questions. That’s a primary function of a forum like this. Also, I see that your questions are driven by your chemical sensitivity and your desire to not expose yourself to things that cause reactions. That is a worthy goal, and I think most folks here want to help you get there. But I also notice that, as a starting point for your questions, you are repeating information you obtained from an unknown representative from an unknown guitar company. You have heard a few folks here on the OLF (including me) express skepticism about whether the information is accurate. We are not questioning your veracity, but rather the veracity of this unknown representative from an unknown guitar company. I trust that you were told what you were told; I just don’t trust that what you were told is accurate. It sounds like a bunch of bull to me, to be very honest. Factories don’t use Franklin liquid hide glue, and even if they did, it is not the substance I would most suspect is setting off your reactions. The odds are that there is something else doing this to you, not a formulation of hide glue (not even the additive-laden stuff that Franklin sells). I think you would be better off just coming out and telling us on the OLF what model guitar from what manufacturer is doing this to you. Believe it or not, there are people on the forum who have learned a LOT about factory guitars over the years, from doing repair work, etc. There is a strong possibility you could get a straight answer about what is on, or in, that guitar. Or, you can keep giving us a factual premise (fed to you by some factory rep) that many of us suspect is not accurate, and keep trying to find solutions based on a set of facts that might not be accurate. I think the first option makes more sense, and I encourage you to go that route. As for your question in this instance, I have no earthly idea how those things work. Maybe someone else does. But if they just mess with the oxygen in the air, without adding or subtracting moisture, they should have no negative effect on a hide glue joint. |
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| Author: | TripodBob [ Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: using ozonator to remove offending smell inside guitar |
Ozone is a highly reactive oxidizer and as such could have a destructive effect on the wood and glue joints inside your guitar. I wouldn't get it anywhere near my guitar or my lungs. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: using ozonator to remove offending smell inside guitar |
Well, according to Bob, they don’t merely mess with the oxygen in the air; they do more than that. I would follow his caution, as well as my advice about just telling us which specific guitar is the problem. Somebody might actually be able to help then. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: using ozonator to remove offending smell inside guitar |
Ozone is a strong oxidizer that can be fairly destructive to organic materials. I would not direct ozone into the soundhole of any guitars. Whereas, charcoal or even better, activated carbon, would do no harm and would very effective at adsorbing any offending chemical odors. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: using ozonator to remove offending smell inside guitar |
Ozone is just O3 (three oxygen atoms, rearranged from the usual O2 that we breathe), but nonetheless it is quite nasty stuff. I thought about recommending it in that other thread as well, but then thought it's probably too risky. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: using ozonator to remove offending smell inside guitar |
That third oxygen atom is unstable and quickly becomes a negatively charged ion that can attack and destroy other organic molecules. Whereas, activated carbon only adsorbs offending chemicals so you can physically remove them from whatever you are trying to decontaminate. (my day job was an environmental remediation engineer) |
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| Author: | stebinus [ Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: using ozonator to remove offending smell inside guitar |
thank you all for your informative replies. i greatly appreciate it. at this point in the saga i am just compiling information. we have not yet worked out an outcome with the manufacturer. i am considering all the possibilities of the culprit and i thank you for your suggestions and ideas. i apologize for piquing your curiosity and when the situation is resolved i will tell all you want to hear. please bear with me and help me continue in my exploration as needed. the situation has been traumatic and i respectfully request your support. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: using ozonator to remove offending smell inside guitar |
If this is an item you are bringing to market you might want to look at all the materials being used, and not just the glue. Formaldehyde is used in the manufacture of many wood products (plywood glues for example) and can be a source of irritation to some people. Sometimes manufacturers substitute materials over the ones that were originally specified and are reluctant to admit that. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: using ozonator to remove offending smell inside guitar |
stebinus wrote: thank you all for your informative replies. i greatly appreciate it. at this point in the saga i am just compiling information. we have not yet worked out an outcome with the manufacturer. i am considering all the possibilities of the culprit and i thank you for your suggestions and ideas. i apologize for piquing your curiosity and when the situation is resolved i will tell all you want to hear. please bear with me and help me continue in my exploration as needed. the situation has been traumatic and i respectfully request your support. I'm not asking you to reveal the secret formula to Coca-Cola, or Colonel Sanders' 11 herbs and spices. It's the name of a guitar manufacturer. If you really wanted accurate information from this forum's participants, you would give the information I've asked for. Your reluctance makes no sense at all, given your stated goals. So, I conclude that those are not really your goals. I'm starting to catch the scent of internet troll. Prove me wrong by providing the requested information. If you are for real, and your reluctance is due to the possibility of litigation, then you should not be on the internet, discussing your situation, at all. Your lawyer will have told you that. |
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| Author: | stebinus [ Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: using ozonator to remove offending smell inside guitar |
goodbye and thank you all for your help. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: using ozonator to remove offending smell inside guitar |
Oops, too late.... About a hundred years ago ozone generators ('spark boxes') came into fashion as a way to artificially age wood. They were as highly touted at the time as Torrefaction is now. Over time the drawbacks started to surface. Spark boxes don't just make ozone; they also produce oxides of nitrogen. These react with water to become nitric acid, which can react in turn with all sorts of organic compounds. Some that we all are aware of are glycerin, toluene, and cellulose. When highly nitrated all three become high explosives, but any level of nitration may produce an unstable compound that can break down over time. We see this with nitrocellulose lacquer: it's only nitrated about 18%, but that's enough to severely limit it's stability and service life. It also releases those nitrates as it breaks down, which can then attack other things, making it 'toxic' in the lexcon of museum conservators. In the case of those old violins, one experienced repairman has reported that instruments from makers who were know to use them tend to break down in a particular way: the tops become spongy and crumble. I don't know how these folks used the spark box back then. I don't know if modern ozone generators produce the same sort of nitrates. I do know that I'd tend to avoid some treatment that has been linked to instruments that deteriorate rapidly after some interval of time. Just a thought... |
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