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A different kind of tuning machine
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=52179		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  A different kind of tuning machine
Does anybody make a geared tuning machine with the tuning pegs going out the back of the peghead? I don't like slotted peghead tuners. This is related to Harp Guitars.

Mike
Author:  jshelton [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
pegheds.com
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
Looking for a planetary gearing system.
Author:  StevenWheeler [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
Mike OMelia wrote:
Looking for a planetary gearing system.


jshelton wrote:
pegheds.com
Author:  DennisK [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
Yup, 16:1 Pegheds are the only good option I'm aware of for steel strings.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
Ed Minch sent me a link to these:
https://shop.gryphonstrings.com/product ... idal-tuner

He could probably tell you more about them.
Author:  DennisK [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
Clay S. wrote:
Ed Minch sent me a link to these:
https://shop.gryphonstrings.com/product ... idal-tuner

He could probably tell you more about them.

:lol: Believe it or not, in the hour since my last post I had the idea to use a cycloidal reducer, and am presently in the middle of 3D modelling it. Although mine is a special compound version that can produce high ratios with very low tooth counts, and thus may be 3D printable.
Author:  Ruby50 [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
Frank Ford conceived of these 10:1 cycloidal gears and never got around to manufacaturing them - gave the concept to Rickard and they are making them.

https://shop.gryphonstrings.com/products/frank-fords-corner-rickard-101-rickard-cycloidal-tuner

He did this as an alternative for the early OM's that had banjo pegs on them. I will be using them on a Stauffer head that I am starting shortly.

Dennis - does Pegheads have a a 16:1 option? I am only finding their 4:1

Ed
Author:  DennisK [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
Ruby50 wrote:
Dennis - does Pegheads have a a 16:1 option? I am only finding their 4:1

There's not much info on the web site. Email him and ask for the catalog pdf.
Author:  SnowManSnow [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
Hmmm not sure if this will help
https://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Pa ... uners.html


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Author:  Tim Mullin [ Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
Steinberger "gearless" tuners, as used on Gibson and Epiphone "Firebirds". Unfortunately, Gibson is no longer making them available retail. You can find them on eBay at an absurd price. I purchased and "upgraded" a couple of Epiphone birds in order to set some Steinbergers aside for my Harp guitars. I then sold the birds on so that the net cost of the Steinbergers was zero.
Attachment:
3f0a17e217c14e56c92ce69a92048d75.jpg


Also possible are the Kluson "banjo style" tuners, also for Firebirds. The "reissue" type is readily available at a reasonable price:
Attachment:
Kluson_Firebird_Reissue_Nickel_00_1400x.jpg
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
For what its worth, waverly has them... but high price and 4:1 (yuk) turn ratio

https://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Pa ... uitar.html
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
SnowManSnow wrote:
Hmmm not sure if this will help
https://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Pa ... uners.html


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How does one achieve 40:1 without gears?
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
Clay S. wrote:
Ed Minch sent me a link to these:
https://shop.gryphonstrings.com/product ... idal-tuner

He could probably tell you more about them.


Anybody used these on a steel string? Harp? is 10:1 ok?
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
DennisK wrote:
Yup, 16:1 Pegheds are the only good option I'm aware of for steel strings.


Dennis, I have a harp waiting to finish. I have never liked using bridge pins for harp strings. Always though some kine of brass screw in riser for each string would work nicely. Any thoughts?
Author:  Tim Mullin [ Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  A different kind of tuning machine
Mike OMelia wrote:
SnowManSnow wrote:
Hmmm not sure if this will help
https://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Pa ... uners.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How does one achieve 40:1 without gears?

Ah, they’re back! There was a period where SM was claiming they couldn’t get them anymore. Of course the 40:1 is marketing, but they really are awesome.
I got the idea for using them for harp-guitar sub basses from Luke Brunner — he used them originally for his compact harp guitar, but had to redesign when SM no longer had them. I’ll have to let him know.


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Author:  DennisK [ Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
SnowManSnow wrote:
Hmmm not sure if this will help
https://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Pa ... uners.html

Now that's an interesting design! I'm not 100% sure, but I think the tensioning is done by pulling the string further down the hole, as you screw the bottom cap onto the post while holding the key on top to keep the post from turning. So the screw thread functions as the gear. They're a bit heavy, but cheaper than Pegheds. Definitely worth considering.

Mike OMelia wrote:
Clay S. wrote:
Ed Minch sent me a link to these:
https://shop.gryphonstrings.com/product ... idal-tuner

He could probably tell you more about them.


Anybody used these on a steel string? Harp? is 10:1 ok?

My guess is that they'd be just enough. I've tried 4:1 Pegheds, and they're way too touchy. 10:1 might still be a bit touchy for most people, but these look to have a smaller post diameter, which increases the effective gear ratio. They look heavy, though. I'd email and ask for the weight before using them on a harp guitar.

Mike OMelia wrote:
DennisK wrote:
Yup, 16:1 Pegheds are the only good option I'm aware of for steel strings.


Dennis, I have a harp waiting to finish. I have never liked using bridge pins for harp strings. Always though some kine of brass screw in riser for each string would work nicely. Any thoughts?

Are you talking about bridge anchoring, or string break angle pegs at the headstock end?

If the latter, my harp guitar just has the strings come straight off the post, but they do occasionally buzz so I will be adding some kind of nut-like things on my next one. Probably horizontal break angle, using brass posts (2-3mm diameter) sticking up from holes drilled in the wood (see the black dots in the MS Paint masterpiece below). Possibly with slots filed into the sides of them to precisely set the string height rather than having it determined by the number of wraps around the post. Really the same thing as a nut, but rotated 90 degrees :)
Author:  StevenWheeler [ Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
DennisK wrote:
They look heavy, though.


The specs have them weighing in at 30 grams each or 230 grams for a set of six which makes no sense unless the numbers include packaging. Weight is about the same as an enclosed Gotoh or a Rotomatic.
Author:  Tim Mullin [ Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  A different kind of tuning machine
I just weighed a set of Steinbergers sitting on my shelf = 234 g, virtually identical to a set of Gotoh M6-style 3+3.

Muriel Anderson playing a Brunner compact harp guitar with Steinbergers for the sub basses.

https://youtu.be/sAzKPdiqkGo

I notice that while Epiphone Firebirds still use them, it seems they’ve been dropped by Gi*son, which is likely connected to the renewed availability of these tuners on the retail market. Not so long ago (last year) you would see used ones on eBay for $250+

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Author:  DennisK [ Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A different kind of tuning machine
Yeah, the Steinbergers are not heavy compared to typical machines, just compared to Pegheds, which are about 12.6g each. Makes a big difference when you have twice as many of them, especially with the harp arm being even longer than the neck.
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