$6 is crazy. I'm going to have a talk with Birko.
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| farming out production steps http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=52496 |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | farming out production steps |
I understand some of you farm out aspects of guitar building, like finishing. My question is, do any of you guys farm out other things, like say buying pre-made parts such as bridges, necks, fingerboard, etc. to simplify production and eliminate possible weak links in production that leads to error? I have seen in Taobao that they make fingerboards, bridges, etc. all pre made and not at a very high price either, in fact probably slightly cheaper than blanks. The pre made necks they have are in the rough, meaning it comes out of a CNC and nothing else has been done to it (still have tool marks all over it). Does anyone here use CNC, or farms out production of parts to a shop that has CNC if you can't afford one? |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
I've bought the occasional multiscale fingerboard, and if I were to start producing mando's on a regular basis I would consider prefretted boards..l |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
I will buy preprocessed wood binding and kerfed linings and sometimes pickguards. I do have some precut fret boards too, if I find a good deal on them then I will buy them. I will also buy inlay such as torches or anything else fancy I have a love hate relationship with finishing. If I ever had a client who wanted a perfect mirror gloss Nitro finish then they would have to pay the extra to farm that out too. As for the rest of it, I like the wood work except linings. I do intend one of these days building an arch top and most likely I will farm out a CNC top. That way it gets rid of all the heavy lifting and leaves you with just having to finalize it. I'm not sure exactly why you are asking but often times this comes up in forums when people talk about what a truly 'hand made' guitar is or somehting like that. The way I look at it is I will farm anything out if I can get it cheaper then me making it myself or if it's just a royal PIA like kerfed linings are. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
I'm only asking because I keep seeing on Aliexpress that the pre made bridges, fingerboards, and necks are often slightly cheaper than blanks. I can never understand why. Guitar neck (roughed out on CNC) https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3285395 ... 5100lXXuqW neck blank https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3285051 ... 5100GObAxv |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
Well IDK what Mahogany Okoume Wood is but that's what the neck is made from while the other says African Mahogany. But geesh $6 bucks? That's crazy cheap regardless of what it is made of. I don't know how they do it either outside of slave labor and perhaps unethical foresting. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
On their Taobao site, they're selling african mahogany neck blanks for about 50 yuan each (AAA, better than 85 degree quartered) while completed necks are going for 65 yuan each. Pre made bridge out of ebony are sold at about 2 dollars (US) each. I have no idea how they do this but it could involve an army of CNC machines and insane volume. Those necks are completely untouched (from what it looks like) coming out of the CNC. That seller also sells gallon bucket of Titebond original, and I will buy that because it's very expensive getting it from the US, and Taiwan only sells Titebond II and III (both of which are heat and moisture resistant. Heat will NOT release it) |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
$6 is crazy. I'm going to have a talk with Birko.
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| Author: | Colin North [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
Maybe I'm crazy, but I get a real kick out of being able to say to folks "No, I didn't buy anything except the pieces of wood. the frets, strings and tuners, I made everything as you see it." and "No, I do my own finishing" Wouldn't be the same to say, "Well, I buy in the necks roughly shaped with the headplates glued on, the bridges pre-made from China, the FBs are preslotted and radiused to order from the States..... etc, etc., or "Oh, I get a specialist to do my finishes" |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
I'm with Colin. I don't judge others for putting together their guitars with parts made by other folks. Everybody has good reasons for outsourcing some aspects of building. Plus, I am not yet in this as a side business, so I would never judge what others do to make this work as a business. I'm still a hobbyist. But I know that I get a lot out of being able to say that everything on my guitar that is made out of wood was fashioned by me. I even go to the trouble of making my own purfling (not that hard, really). If I had to explain how the neck came from this supplier, and the whatever else came from this other supplier, it would not have the same impact, on either them or me. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
YEah but did you cut the tree down, split the drums, resaw your own planks, sticker them for years then resaw the final boards to thickness? Did you use hand tools for every stroke? And come on! You didn't make the tuners?
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| Author: | bftobin [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
I can see China offering goods at a low price (maybe even at cost) just get get a flow of foreign currency into the country. I wouldn't buy the blank because I can get it locally much cheaper, but the roughed-out neck looks like a good buy Thanks Tai Brent |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
meddlingfool wrote: I've bought the occasional multiscale fingerboard, and if I were to start producing mando's on a regular basis I would consider prefretted boards..l Those skinny fretwires always seem to have oversized barbs, which makes them near impossible to get into .023" slots. Either get a wider saw or StewMac fret barber. I use the latter on all fretwires to get the fit just right for hammering, but if you already have a saw that matches nicely with your favorite fretwire, then a second saw for mando wire would probably be cheaper. jfmckenna wrote: YEah but did you cut the tree down, split the drums, resaw your own planks, sticker them for years then resaw the final boards to thickness? Did you use hand tools for every stroke? And come on! You didn't make the tuners? Don't forget about planting the tree and waiting for it to grow  (that would actually be a really cool thing for a multi-generational luthier family to do)Buying resawn top/back/side sets is the main form of outsourcing I do. I don't have space for a bandsaw... or a pile of drying planks. But after that it really is almost all hand tools  Usually only inlay pockets and saddle slot need electricity.And I am actually going to try making my own tuners as soon as I'm done building a small CNC mill for another project. Should be good for bridge pins too, by sticking a piece of wood in the chuck, screwing a tool down to the bed and using it like a lathe. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
jfmckenna wrote: YEah but did you cut the tree down, split the drums, resaw your own planks, sticker them for years then resaw the final boards to thickness? Did you use hand tools for every stroke? And come on! You didn't make the tuners? Definitely no to all of the above! I make it clear to people who ask (the genuinely curious) that I start with dried and mostly milled lumber, use plenty of power tools, and tend to just install the stuff that's made out of metal. When they ask where I get the wood (again, the genuinely curious tend to ask this), I let them know that there are specialty suppliers who sell the right kinds of woods, sawn the right way, to people like me. I belong to a woodworking club, and guys are constantly asking questions like this. I just wouldn't feel the same level of accomplishment if I told them that the neck was carved for me by a CNC specialist, or that the finish was done for me. I'm in this for the experience and senses of accomplishment and satisfaction, not for the money. I make my money doing something very different. If I were in this for the money, I would think about this very differently. It might make perfect sense to outsource aspects of the build if I were trying to hit a price point without sacrificing quality. But that's not what I get out of this endeavor, so I do a lot of things the hard way. |
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| Author: | DanKirkland [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
Tai Fu wrote: I understand some of you farm out aspects of guitar building, like finishing. My question is, do any of you guys farm out other things, like say buying pre-made parts such as bridges, necks, fingerboard, etc. to simplify production and eliminate possible weak links in production that leads to error? I have seen in Taobao that they make fingerboards, bridges, etc. all pre made and not at a very high price either, in fact probably slightly cheaper than blanks. The pre made necks they have are in the rough, meaning it comes out of a CNC and nothing else has been done to it (still have tool marks all over it). Does anyone here use CNC, or farms out production of parts to a shop that has CNC if you can't afford one? If you're still trying to avoid making a dovetail neck. I really advise that you should just buckle down and learn to make a dovetailed neck. Farming is accomplished by most bigger makers by having a factory. |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
jfmckenna wrote: YEah but did you cut the tree down, split the drums, resaw your own planks, sticker them for years then resaw the final boards to thickness? Did you use hand tools for every stroke? And come on! You didn't make the tuners? No, didn't make the earth the trees grew in neither. Nor sent the rain that nourished them, the air they breathed, the Sun that ………. |
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| Author: | Brad Goodman [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
I buy the kerfed lining and have the boards slottted . I resaw most of the backs, sides and necks and make my own binding. Sub contracting parts/tasks for musical instruments has been going on for literally centuries.... MOP and abalone inlays and wood purflings are some that have been farmed out for several centuries. John D'Angelico farmed out his inlay/engraving work. French polishing has traditionally been done by others who specialized in it. Wooden tuning pegs for various instruments are made by specialists, etc., etc., etc.......... And then there's Eric Shoenberg, who has a stable of several Luthiers who build the entire instrument with his name on them. Its your world and we are just passing through... In other words, whatever works for you-the important thing ( in my mind ) is that the instrument you build is YOUR dream -I doesn't matter how you get there. |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
I mentioned getting a few fretboards from Andy Birko last week. I got them because they were priced well and will save me some time. I wouldn't buy a pre-shaped neck because I like a specific neck and heel profile. Same with bridges. I'm all about developing skills. I like to be able to say I can cut fret slots freehand without a jig, but I also don't mind buying a pre-slotted board. I just entered into my first commission with a co-worker who asked me to make him a guitar. If we'd agreed on a price that made it reasonable to do so, I wouldn't hesitate to farm out finish, either. I can do it, but a specialist can do it faster. That means the client would get the guitar sooner. I only get a few hours of shop time per week, so when I know things will save me time, I also know it will save my co-worker weeks. |
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
I’m not casting dispersions on anyone who outsources. As a hobbiest, I have the luxury of trying to make as much as possible by hand because that’s what floats my boat. I’m sure some aspects of my instruments would be better if I outsourced (finish comes to mind) and definitely faster. I like being able to say “I did that.” I’m fairly certain that most people assume I didn’t make the frets or the tuners. I would like to one day be able to make my own bridge pins but I’m not there yet. On one guitar, I used a decorative purfling that I bought instead of making. I always get a little sad when people say they really like it and ask how I did it. In the end, there is no right or wrong, only what you decide based on your goals. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: farming out production steps |
Bryan Bear wrote: I’m not casting dispersions on anyone who outsources. As a hobbiest, I have the luxury of trying to make as much as possible by hand because that’s what floats my boat. I’m sure some aspects of my instruments would be better if I outsourced (finish comes to mind) and definitely faster. I like being able to say “I did that.” I’m fairly certain that most people assume I didn’t make the frets or the tuners. I would like to one day be able to make my own bridge pins but I’m not there yet. On one guitar, I used a decorative purfling that I bought instead of making. I always get a little sad when people say they really like it and ask how I did it. In the end, there is no right or wrong, only what you decide based on your goals. I can think of all kinds of answers to deflect that one No harm in saying, I just bought those  I was traveling in Costa Rica about a decade ago and came across this little music shop in a small town and of course had to check it out. For some really odd reason they had about ten rosettes for sale in a glass case. The young guys who worked there really had no idea but I just had to buy one. I had planned on making a flamenco guitar right after I returned and that was going to be the rosette for it. Everyone always comments on it and while I guess I have a reasonalbly good story behind that one, no harm in telling people you bought something. I hate making rosettes so I don't have an issue with it. Just liek torch inlays I'd much rather admit I bought it then have a real shiddy one that I made. |
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