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Plastic binding/glue test results..
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=52693		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Plastic binding/glue test results..
This all started when I got back a guitar that I built 22 years ago that had the binding coming off .
I used ABS binding with the LMI glue in the the Blue tube


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So I tried a little experiment with different plastics and different glues to see if I can come up with anything and here’s what I found:

I routed a binding/ purfling channel in the edge of a Honduran mahogany board.

Then I glued in different types of plastic material with different types of glue and let it sit for five days and then used a chisel to pry them all out of there slots to see what I could observe...

Here are the different combinations I used:

ABS-LMI blue tube, Duco,LMI fca, Roo glue and thin cyanoacrolate

PVC - LMI blue tube and LMI fca

Bolteron- LMI fca and Roo glue

Ivoroid- Duco and LMI blue tube

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So what I found was that all the glues seem to take some wood with them when you pry them off with a chisel...

As Far is how tight they were on there the clear winner was the Ivoroid with the Duco

The other thing I noticed about the Duco was that purfling to binding bond was better than any of the other glues .
Before I did this experiment I thought the plastic to plastic bond would be better than the plastic to Wood bond but that didn’t seem to be the case.

I showed in my last post that I had a piece of a guitar that was 23 years old that had ivoroid binding and I pulled off and it took a lot of wood with it was really tight after all those years
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Author:  Hesh [ Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
Many thanks for this Brad, very useful and timely too.

Back in the day I was one of the first ever Windsurfer dealers in the world. I think that I purchased number seven as our first one to learn on and resell. Anyway back then windsurfer racing was much like sailboat racing in terms of the courses, etc. We had clients who wanted compasses installed but not screwed on to the boards. We could not get anything to stick reliably to ABS, nothing. It was bleach bottle.

Anyway we have some solutions these days and your guide agrees with our information.

Thanks for putting this together Brad my friend and I'm still enjoying my number 14 that you sold me the rosewood for, great guitar.
Author:  bluescreek [ Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
been a duco fan for 20 years your result mirrored mine from about 18 years ago
Author:  Woodie G [ Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
Duco is fine on cellulose nitrate - it's just gelled acetone, after all, and a good solvent for the material. Not a good adhesive for ABS/PVC alloys like Bolteron, and it's common to see peeling Bolteron bindings from the era when Martin used Duco. We get adequate hold on plain ABS or PVC, but have been playing with Oatley Fusion low-VOC PVC cement for PVC, CPVC, and ABS, and like what we are seeing thus far...$1/ounce versus about $7/ounce for other glues like Weld-On and Duco.

Any of these adhesives -with the possible exception of the honey badger of glues, CA - are as much dependent on surface prep as the nature of the sticky stuff itself. Any plastic binding gets clean and toothed before use.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
"honey badger of glues" laughing6-hehe
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
scroll down for the video:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/hon ... te-3426051
Author:  guitarjtb [ Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
I have several different types of binding that I have bought through the years. I have no idea what some of it is made from. Is there an easy way to test a small scrap of each and tell if it is PVC, ABS, Bolteron, etc., etc.?
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
James Burkett wrote:
I have several different types of binding that I have bought through the years. I have no idea what some of it is made from. Is there an easy way to test a small scrap of each and tell if it is PVC, ABS, Bolteron, etc., etc.?


I do not know of any method to tell those types apart.
Author:  Ruby50 [ Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
I like to use ivoroid - is there more than one material that it is made of? The fancy stuff is original cellulose nitrate and costs a bundle to ship because of the hazmat fee, but I have bought other that was inexpensive and had no extra fee. How about CA with the good stuff? I have had (at least temporary) success with CA on it.

Ed
Author:  guitarjtb [ Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
I guess my best option, if I don't know the material for sure, is to scrape it, tooth it, and use the honey badger.
Author:  John Arnold [ Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
Quote:
I like to use ivoroid - is there more than one material that it is made of?


There is some ivory-grained polyester, but I have never seen it used for binding. Celluloid can be identified by the strong camphor smell when scraped or sanded.

Quote:
How about CA with the good stuff? I have had (at least temporary) success with CA on it.


Been doing that for 30+ years. It's my favorite glue for celluloid, since there is no softening of the binding that can occur with Duco. I do use Duco for wood rosettes and purfling.......it does not discolor spruce like CA can.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
It's probably terrible but I actually like the smell of scraping Ivoriod.
Author:  Ruby50 [ Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
Thanks John - just the information I need about CA and celluloid

Ed
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
I just finished a bound pick guard made from tortoise Celluloid nitrate withABS binding around it which I glued on with CA.

I had to take a piece of the binding off and it was “fused” on there - really good bond.

Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  dzsmith [ Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
My experiments showed acetone bonded the best, second was welden 16 solvent cement. CA was worthless.
Author:  Mike_P [ Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
I've found that if possible you need to scuff up both surfaces when using superglue...otherwise is almost always fails...of course I'm referring to non-porous materials
Author:  bluescreek [ Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
the more I do this the less I use CA
Author:  Woodie G [ Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
All CA for the last dozen or so instruments. Bonus is the lack of shrink-back from solvent loading...we can scrape and prep for finish 5 minutes after the bindings are on with wood or non-cellulose nitrate plastics. When the binding is celluloid, we tend to butter the miters with celluloid/acetone paste, but even that does not slow down scrape and sand too much.

Quality CA of the right viscosity and appropriate sealing of end grain has a profound impact on results. Most big box CA and too many hobby shops have stock that is at or near expiration by the time it makes it into the shop. BSI from a reliable supplier and GlueBoost CA and accelerator are the best we've found - both are used on any CA binding job (the BSI Blue and GluBoost make for a perfect initial 'tack-welding' of the binding and purfling to the guitar, as well as flooding channels for shell, and the thin MasterGlue works well for final glue-up of the purflings. We do not use any Gorilla or LocTite CA glues from big box stores, due to the shelf life issues.

Also worth noting that GluBoost appears to us to age on the shelf, such that it becomes less effective over time, so we buy direct from the company and receive a 'born on:...' date for each can of accelerator. At about 8-9 months, we see a noticeable reduction in potency, and after a year, we tend to toss any timed-out stock...normally not an issue, as we go through 10-12 bottles of GluBoost per year, and order in 6-can lots.

Wash-down and prep of any binding and purfling material is a good idea whatever the adhesive...we do replacement guards just as Mr.Goodman shows, cutting the miter in place after tacking with CA, then full glue-up. Ebony or other tropicals can be a problem with some glues, but Smith's epoxy, CA, and MGS epoxy (an aircraft structural glue that the boss is using in his airplane project) all work for anything we've tried.

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Author:  SteveSmith [ Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding/glue test results..
I've also had excellent results with GluBoost CA and accelerator. The GluBoost CA products are the only ones that I use anymore.
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