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Nut Files :(
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=52720		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Nut Files :(
This is the at lest the 3rd or 4th time this has happened to me since I bought some actual nut files a few months back. For the last 25+ years I've been a needle file kinda guy but I thought what the heck I will try it. First impression was, hey these things really do work ok. I only bought 4 of them, an average of all the sizes. I think it's silly for example to use a .011 file for a .011 string and so on. If anything it would be best to go big in case they want to use medium gauge strings in the future and since you are making a U-shaped slot anyway the string is always going to find the apex.... But anyway.

The larges file I have is a .050 but one side seems to be just a hair thicker then the other side. So if I am filing away at a slot for example on the thinner side then put the string on to test the height and then pick up the file to give the slot a few more strokes I might now be on the thick side and what happens is I take that one cut and SNAP! a chunk of the bone nut splits right of becasue it the thicker side forced the slot open.

Anyone have this problem? I don't notice it on any of the other 3 files. I was thinking it might just be a burr edge on that side too but the whole other side seems thicker along it's length.

I got these from SM by the way.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
Have you measured the two sides of the file with calipers to see if they are different from each other? The files I have are from LMI and I haven't noticed any difference in thickness between sides.

For me, two things have resulted in chip outs when filing nut slots with nut files. Binding of the file in the slot because I didn't keep the file close enough in line with the slot and filing deep slots which, in my hands and with my files, increases the chances of binding resulting in a fracture. I don't file the slots more than about 1/16" deep. If the slots get that deep but still need to go deeper, I take the nut to the belt sander and sand down the top of the nut until the slots are shallow and then do more filing as needed. That greatly reduces the chances of binding at least with the files I have.

I also think that some bone nut blanks just have hidden fractures that only show up when filing slots. Particularly when you are almost done.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
Good idea I should have thought to measure the thickness. This was a nut that was already cut, just needed to be tuned up, and the first thing I did was remove a lot of the top off so that the slots would not be so deep. I suppose it could be technique as these are new to me but I don't recall this happening so often with my needle files. Maybe rolling the file a bit would help.
Author:  Woodie G [ Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
The V-shaped files from StewMac are what we use for the initial work, then finish with the parallel-sides files for precise width. Deeper cuts using the 12/20, 26/32, 36/42, and 50/60 widths are quick, while fine-tuning the slot shape for width and shape is the forte of the parallel sided files. Our first set of the StewMac V-files held up for nearly 15 years...we replaced them when working Gibson-style nylon nuts started getting tedious.
Author:  Dave m2 [ Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
Lubrication also helps. I use dry PTFE spray but I have heard people use just water. A big help to prevent binding.

Dave
Author:  Chris Pile [ Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
In answer to the OP, if you think your files are not uniform thickness - I suggest measuring them to find out. Then you'll know, and can proceed with solving your problem.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
Welp... I guess it's just me then. If anything it's thick at the tip .051 then down to .050 in the center but I doubt that would make a difference. Both edges measure the same. But I swear when I cut on one edge then flip it over the file binds.

What are these V-files that you speak of?
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
We use the gauged nut files like the feeler gauge ones not the ones with a coated handle.

Our claim to fame on our set-ups is that we take nut slots way lower than others and it's a signature thing with us where lots of folks including us can tell if we ever worked on the instrument prior because of how low we take our slots. I'm speaking of sub .001" measured at the first while fretting between the second and third for the high e and so on and so forth.

What's relevant about this statement is we cut thousands of nut slots annually and since we have light cured dental fillings as a back stop if we go too low we go for broke and favor making instruments play like butter with our skill, experience and tooling.

Clients always appreciate the value received of making the user interface to the instrument, the set-up flawless.

Nut files do require proper technique or they will bind and possibly chip a nut.

My initial passes, say I am cutting for the high e which is going to be a 12 in this case is to scrape the left side of the existing nut slot on the downward pass with the file and then repeat on the right side. By scraping the side of the slot slightly on the way down to the bottom of the slot I'm enlarging the slot to slightly wider than the file. My files have all been measured with a Starrett micrometer and the actual thickness is sharpie marked on the files.

This way the strings won't bind, the file doesn't bind, the player won't while tuning hear a "tink" and watch his/her tuner jump... AND the instrument is set-up for at least one gauge larger string in the process too which is always a good idea.

The amount of pressure that I use on my files is also important as the nut materials of commercial instruments varies widely with some really soft stuff (Taylor and g*bson) and hard stuff like bone out there.

At the better Lutherie schools they teach their students that nut making may require 100 nuts to learn to make a nut that is functionally perfect, visually pleasing, artistically appropriate and worthy of the hard earned many of our clients. It's a skill and one of the hardest skills of all in Lutherie if you ask me to make superb nuts.

Picking up new tools to you, nut files should take some getting used to and I would encourage practice on cheap stuff like corian that's what they do that the Galloup school too.

The files you are using I had years ago and thought that they suck and replaced them with the ones I use now. All my nut files get replaced annually as I cut personally thousands of slots annually.

BTW they work great for saddles on electrics such as Strats and you can ramp a bridge with them too to some degree. They are also useful for slotting banjo and Archie bridges.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
What nut files are you using then Hesh?
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
Dave and I have always used these types of files, not the sets we buy all the individuals:

https://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Tools_for_Nuts_and_Saddles/Gauged_Nut_Slotting_File_Set_for_Electric_Guitar.html

I still have some Grobet files like these too in odd sizes even though they no longer make them.

Stew-Mac has asked us to be beta sites for them in the past for when they switched from the red handled files to the black handled files.

It's our practice when we get new files or test products for others to use a microscope to examine the resulting bottom of the slot. These cut U shaped slots and with my side scraping on the downward stroke the resulting slot looks like a V at the top and a U at the bottom, exactly what I want and no resulting binding of the strings or files.
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
I too like to get my slots ALAP. I started out with the SM double-sided and I recently got the single size set also from SM and I've been pretty happy with them. I actually like the longer handle on the dual-sided, but I think the individuals make more of a "string shaped" slot. I like Woody's idea of using both.

I'm waiting for some reviews to come in on the new diamond nut files. Quite expensive, but one of the most used and important setup tools in the shop. Hmm....

What other kind are there? LMI? Japanese?

Pat
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
My link isn't working so here's a pic of some of these files in my home shop.
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
Pmaj7 wrote:
I too like to get my slots ALAP. I started out with the SM double-sided and I recently got the single size set also from SM and I've been pretty happy with them. I actually like the longer handle on the dual-sided, but I think the individuals make more of a "string shaped" slot. I like Woody's idea of using both.

I'm waiting for some reviews to come in on the new diamond nut files. Quite expensive, but one of the most used and important setup tools in the shop. Hmm....

What other kind are there? LMI? Japanese?

Pat


Hey Pat - who's going to have the diamond nut files?
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
Dude, you're not on the stewmac mailing list?! They came out about a month ago. They cost four times as much, but will they last more than four times as long? But honestly, the main interest for me would be there cutting action: faster? Smoother? More control, feedback?

Pat
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
Pmaj7 wrote:
Dude, you're not on the stewmac mailing list?! They came out about a month ago. They cost four times as much, but will they last more than four times as long? But honestly, the main interest for me would be there cutting action: faster? Smoother? More control, feedback?

Pat


I don't think that we've bought anything from SM for several years and I unsubscribe to all the spam that comes our way :)

I'll have to check them out. Dave did mention a couple months ago that we were offered products to test again but he declined since we are so busy at all times now we shy away from antying that will suck time.

Diamond files were and are a HUGE improvement IME for fret work but primarily because they work in both directions. Nut files kind of do too anyway so I don't see much improvement there in concept. I may be wrong of course in practice when we get to try them.

Bone is also much softer than metal so again not sure that diamond is an improvement. Conventional files do clog and in our cases we file dental fillings after curing them with light and that can clog up our files too. I'd feel pretty bad ruining a 4 times more expensive file by clogging it up with dental fillings where the cheaper files are just that, cheaper if I ruin them.

Just thinking out loud here how in actual practice I use nut files near daily.

Do they have a page on the new offering yet at SM?
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
Pretty cool Pat, thanks for that. [clap]

I think we will have to get some and try them out. They look well made from here but time will tell.
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut Files :(
you're probably smart to unsubscribe from all of the spam!
https://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/T ... Files.html

Pat
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