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no truss rod
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=52721		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  frwilliams [ Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  no truss rod
I have an 84 Larrivee, I believe is an L9 Florentine cutaway. It has been a dream guitar for the 20 years or so that I have had it. Its neck has remained strait as an arrow. recently it has started to pull forward. so I took it to my shop to adjust the truss rod, only to realize after all these years it doesn’t have one. Since it had no cover plate, I had simply thought it was inside. NOT. So has anyone any experience straightening a neck without a truss rod.

thanks for your help

fred
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
That would require compression fretting are you sure the truss rod isn't in the neck look real close with an inspection mirror
Author:  Michaeldc [ Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
On the Larrivees I’ve owned the truss rod is hidden behind the UTB and requires a special wrench to get at it. Here is a link. https://www.larrivee.com/shop/truss-rod ... d-old-size
Author:  George L [ Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
Yeah, what Michael (and John) said. Check again.
Author:  tysam [ Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
Before you order a truss rod tool be aware that there are two styles....one pre 2000 and one for models after 2000. Pre 2000 (for your model) I believe is the J shaped rod not the L
Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
Different sizes too, it just shape...from 3/16 iirc to 5/32...
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
Just playing the odds: a steel string guitar built for commercial sale in 1984 is more likely to have a truss rod that is well hidden than to have no truss rod at all. Have you contacted Larrivee for information on this guitar? That’s what I would do.
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
Yep it's there just not very serviceable for folks not used to working in sound holes with mirrors. And yes there are two styles of wrenches depending on the era it was built.

PS: It would not surprise me if some of what you are experiencing is that it's neck reset time too. The instrument is old enough for sure.
Author:  CarlD [ Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
I know this is sacrilege, but how about drilling a hole through the UTB. beehive
Author:  DanKirkland [ Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
Hesh wrote:
PS: It would not surprise me if some of what you are experiencing is that it's neck reset time too. The instrument is old enough for sure.


Hate to be a downer on this but weren't Larrivee's for a while made with super glue?
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
DanKirkland wrote:
Hesh wrote:
PS: It would not surprise me if some of what you are experiencing is that it's neck reset time too. The instrument is old enough for sure.


Hate to be a downer on this but weren't Larrivee's for a while made with super glue?


I dunno idunno I haven't heard that one before.

Hey Merry Christmas Dan to you and your's.
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
CarlD wrote:
I know this is sacrilege, but how about drilling a hole through the UTB. beehive


I actually forgot to drill a truss rod access hole in my number 20ish and had to drill it after the guitar was built. Not fun, did it by hand through the sound hole twisting the drill bits manually while drinking single malt scotch. It took a long time and so did the hole to drill. :)
Author:  Ernie Kleinman [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
Hesh , at leat while you were drillng the hole , you were aligning your spirit world with the guitar, and being one with the universe
Author:  doncaparker [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
By hand? Sheesh. You need this stocking stuffer:

https://www.harborfreight.com/38-in-90- ... 69337.html

That way, you get the drilling done and can truly focus on the scotch.
Author:  frwilliams [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
Thanks to all who have commented. But there is no truss rod. I have inspected with a mirror and light, and there is nothing. I took a photo, but can’t get it to upload for you. So any suggestions?

Thanks again
Author:  surveyor [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
To be sure there isn't one just get one of those high powered magnets and set it on the bottom of the neck. I doubt they would have installed a non-ferrous rod.
Author:  bluescreek [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
did you call them and ask?
Author:  frwilliams [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
just received an email from Larrivee. "All Larrivée's had a static non-adjustable truss rod up until 1985.” So thats the story. I know Jean Larrivee was a classical builder before he began steel string guitars. I studied with Serge de Jonge, who was one of Larrivee’s first apprentices, in that time where only classicals were being made, accounting for the static truss rod mind set.

So I am an experienced builder to some degree, but not much of a repair man. Any ideas on straightening the neck? Thanks again for all the input. A special hello to John Hall. I visited your shop some years back. I drove down from Perth Ontario and had a very pleasant time gleaning your wisdom. You suggested I wasn’t far from the Martin factory, and so I stayed in a hotel that night and went to Nazareth the next day. Breakfasted in Bethlehem and lunched in Nazareth. Good advice John, I had a great time!
Author:  Ernie Kleinman [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
Back in the eighties I remember seeing a tool that was a long metal heated bar, the neck was clamped to it in order to straighten it out. Check to see what stu mac has in their catalog, Perhaps you can find out what they use an make one ??
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
How bowed is it? In other words, what is the current neck relief? Need to know that before deciding on which option.
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
I've done a couple with heat from a lamp. Was only a little effective. Maybe longer or hotter idk. Someone did make a special tool for that, but kind of pricey for a one time use. How are the frets? Sounds like a great time for a refret and take it out of the board if you are a hobbyist. You could try refretting with larger tangs, but seems like hard to predict the outcome with out experience.
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
doncaparker wrote:
By hand? Sheesh. You need this stocking stuffer:

https://www.harborfreight.com/38-in-90- ... 69337.html

That way, you get the drilling done and can truly focus on the scotch.


laughing6-hehe Yeah exactly Don that would have been a great idea..... But we got through it, it was a tough slog but someone had to empty that bottle of 15 year old single malt. :D So much for all the little cuts on my fingers from twisting a drill bit....
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
What was suggested earlier is what we would recommend, compression refret.

A compression refret uses special fret wire that has differing thicknesses of the tang to induce compression or very slight back bow. If the instrument has permanent forward bow this can be compensated for and even reversed with compression refrets.

Heat treating is BS and although we are tooled up to the wazoo to do it we no longer offer it because it never lasts.......

All Martin authorized service centers like us and John Hall have the various sizes of fret wire specifically made for compression refrets.

It's a bit of an acquired skill and art to do these and it's how all Martins were refretted in the past since truss rods only came into play with Martins in the early 80's.

In a nut shell it's carefully remove all the frets (don't "pull" them, use the tools to gentle lift them to not chip up the board). Level the entire neck and induce fall-away after the 12th fret. Hopefully we won't have to hear someone argue about fall away like always has happened here in the past.....

Begin to refret with a tang size that fits snuggly and with a bit of effort to get them down. We only press frets so we can feel how things are going in all along the way. I only do maybe 4 frets evenly spaced initially and then I string her up, tune to pitch and sight down the neck. You will be able to see where it's still bowing forward and that's where you add maybe four more frets and repeat the stringing it up and sighting down the neck.

You use frets that are snug where you want to push the neck back straight and less snug frets where the neck looks like you want it to already.

After a while you will see how you can manipulate the relief of the neck under string tension by strategically placing frets with over sized tangs in certain spots, or not....

I'm home for the day and not at the shop but I think that we have about 5 - 6 different tang sizes in our stash of Jescar wire just for Martin type compression refits.

When you see the shape that you want and ALWAYS under string tension tuned to pitch with the anticipated gauges of stings that the steward will be using you can put the remaining frets in with a size that does not induce any additional compression.

It's pretty easy but you do need to be capable of reading neck relief by eye sighting the treble and bass slides of the neck respectively and again always under string tension.

The tedious part is reattaching the strings to the bridge (they can stay on the head stock the entire process) and tuning to pitch and sighting down the neck to check your progress.

Remember you are trying to overcome a neck set in time with a steel rod enabling it to be uppty. So instead of trying to force any over sized frets, never do this... favor using multiple slightly oversized frets (tangs are what I speak of as being oversized) to work collectively to counter the neck set and steel rod.

Although a pain in the ass if does work nicely and is predictable and your progress is largely known all along the way because we keep checking. When I do compression refrets I am likely checking my progress fully strung up and tuned to pitch at least four times though out the process.

Laravee makes a great guitar and although a truss rod is an advantage and why they and Martin went to truss rods non-adjustable necks can usually be shaped anyway we wish too with skill, consideration and effort.

Food for thought. Level the board with a precision leveling beam flattened on a surface plate if you have one. The beam should be capable of spaning frets one though 12 at the same time. We make our own beams out of 1 x 2 aluminum.

When using the beam to level the board manipulate it to have less relief on the treble side and more relief on the bass side before ever installing any frets. You can do this by gently pressing back on the head stock while leveling the bass side and gentle pulling the head stock forward while leveling the treble side. Our students from our fretting classes that are on this forum did this and understand it.

Doing all these steps will result in a fixed neck with very little relief (what you want) on the treble side and more relief on the bass side.

But before any of this if you place a straight edge on the frets and take it all the way to the bridge where does it hit the bridge above it, below it, equal to it and in all cases by how much?

This is important because if it needs a neck reset that should always be done before fret work.
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
You want to first figure out what part of the neck is bowing. If it is a fairly uniform bow you might try compression fretting and start at the seventh fret and replace every other fret in both directions as needed, remeasuring each time you replace a fret. Once it is perfectly flat or slightly back bowed string it up and see how much relief you have. If it is too much or the neck has any "kinks" decide which frets to replace to straighten it out. There are a number of different ways to compression fret so pick the one you think will work best for your situation.
John Hall also has a good video on compression fretting which you should watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfMUSIq0f-g

If compression fretting doesn't work you could pull the fretboard and add a truss rod that adjusts at the soundhole.
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: no truss rod
Clay S. wrote:
You want to first figure out what part of the neck is bowing. If it is a fairly uniform bow you might try compression fretting and start at the seventh fret and replace every other fret in both directions as needed, remeasuring each time you replace a fret. Once it is perfectly flat or slightly back bowed string it up and see how much relief you have. If it is too much or the neck has any "kinks" decide which frets to replace to straighten it out. There are a number of different ways to compression fret so pick the one you think will work best for your situation.
John Hall also has a good video on compression fretting which you should watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfMUSIq0f-g

If compression fretting doesn't work you could pull the fretboard and add a truss rod that adjusts at the soundhole.


Advising anyone to pull a fret board when all it needs is a compression refret is very poor advice.
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