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| Top repair, tear out from routing end graft http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=52789 |
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| Author: | Stefan [ Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
Hello again, Thanks for all the help with my last post, the binding on the back. Now to the front of the guitar When I routed out the end graft mortis, I unfortunately was not careful enough with the top. The result is a missing chip of wood. The binding / purfling will take care of 3.5 mm of it, but the chip is 7 mm long, so half is still a problem. I have some more of the spruce for the top, is inlay possible, or should I fill it with something? Stefan |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
Ouch! You have my sympathy. I've seen people doing inlays to cover that type of "challenge" up. I've been lucky myself so far, maybe because I take tiny bites and feed the cutter in from the soundboard side when routing my end graft slots which are usually 6mm binding. |
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| Author: | Ken Nagy [ Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
It looks like only the one chip is a real problem. File, or cut it smooth, and then fit, and glue a piece of spruce into it. Then you probably could just sand most of the rest out after the purfling and binding go on. If you need to fill then; it should be minimal. I don't think that sanding the end down some would be that noticeable, as long as you use a sanding block so it is flat and gradual. Loosing .5 mm over the end block it isn't going to hurt it any. Nice looking spruce! Find the piece that has that silking for your patch. |
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
How deep is the part of that chip out below the centerline that won't be taken care of by the binding/purfling? I agree with Ken that you may be able to take care of most, maybe all, with sanding after the binding is on, if it's shallow. You can avoid this by installing the end graft before gluing the top and back to the sides. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
Yep, patch in slivers from an off cut from the same area and I think you’ll be good after binding and purfling. Leveling the sides will give you a few thousands as well. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
I think it's going to show if you try as you will and as we do with damaged tops to inlay spruce carefully selecting and matching fiber, grain, etc. If it were me I would inlay a second tier of binding just in the tail block area. If you're really wrapped too tight like I am a sunburst might be in order. It's also a good learning experience my friend because you just created what we refer to in the Lutherie world as a "feature." 
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
I've never been able to make something like that look invisible. I would heed Hesh's advice and expand your purfling lines. On a few occasions that I made mistakes like that I had to retop the guitar as it was for a client so a burst or expanded purfs was not an option. No worries though because you can use that braced top on a smaller guitar. Good luck! |
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| Author: | Tim Mullin [ Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
I can’t imagine an easier top repair, assuming you have some cutoff material to choose from and the guitar is not for a commission. Make a wedge with matching cleanup of the tearout with an ultra sharp chisel. Press into place with HHG, if you have it. TB will show more. No CA. It will not be any invisible — no top repair ever is — but done precisely, sanded flush and with a slightly wider purf and good finish, few will notice it. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
you have a design enhancement opportunity you do have some sanding room but a nice purfling should hide that nicely. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
Some prerequisites to patching with a little piece of spruce (assuming you don’t have the exact chip that came off): 1. The skill to make it look as good as possible, which comes from having done it a few times. 2. Access to, and familiarity with, a glue that blends in well, like hot hide glue. If you don’t have those things, you should create a feature to cover the area. That’s just my opinion. There are some skilled folks who could make a patch work. It’s time to self-assess, and make the decision based on that assessment. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
Something that was done on some romantic guitars (and a few more recent guitars) was to inlay a half disc or other decorative element at that location. Depending on the style of the guitar and inlay it could look O.K. http://ancientpoint.com/inf/188142-roma ... _1920.html |
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| Author: | Ken Nagy [ Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
A lot has to do with what you are, or what someone else, if you sell them, will accept. I think that people today have become accustomed to something that looks flawless. I just can't do that. There is NOTHING that I do that is flawless. I've tried. I've failed. I can make cool, but not perfect. I'm happy with cool. Luckily I don't have microscope eyes either. Maybe that's why my detail work is lacking behind. I use my 5X magnifier a lot. All it shows is where I messed up. Without it, it isn't too bad! Matching the grain on a patch would work well. Flawless? Maybe some could pull it off, but fixing mistakes is part of the game. Ferrari's are given a test run on the neighboring roads. When they come back, any paint chips are touched up. Would you call that a flawless finish? You make them unobtrusive. Clay's idea is a good one. But again, you will have to fit the inlay perfectly, and will probably have fill. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
Tragic. I assume it's too late to scour the shop for the specific chip that came off there? With such a lovely medullary ray pattern, it will be difficult to hide it with a different piece. But if you stick the original piece back with hide glue, it will likely be undetectable. Next best bet would be if you have the soundboard offcut, to make a replacement from the wood just below it. No harm giving it a shot. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
I have to say something here A this isn't that bad actually a binding will cover about 1/16 in to the top. The damage is on the of the tail block and can easily sanded out or a nice purfling like Chevron or black white , herringbone anything will cover that trying to match in a piece will NOT WORK |
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| Author: | Brad Goodman [ Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
It is easily covered with purfling.. even if that wasn't your original intention. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
I assume it is the chip near the center seam that extends 7 mm into the top. With binding and a wide purfling similar to what the old Stellas had you might be able to cover it. http://fraulini.com/francesca-2/ Click on the image to enlarge it. |
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| Author: | Ruby50 [ Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
Martin used to do this on the heel of some Style 3 Ukes with ivoroid- it's called a parend. I did one on a copy of an early Ditson dreadnaught Uke in Osage Orange and have wanted to put one on a guitar. I am just now building with my first redwood top and it would look cool. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
these are nice remember that you can always make for pretty. If you make a mistake and you can't hide it , show it off. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
Ed, You found exactly what I was thinking of. I will have to remember that term - parend ( parentheses - greek parentithenai - "put in beside" ?). |
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| Author: | sdsollod [ Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
Seems like there are always different ways to do things. Rather than use a router to put in the end wedge, I use a hand saw and chisel. I typically router the binding channel first. That way I can gauge how deep to go. After the end wedge is in, I use a saw, chisel and file to trim it. Of course, this yields a simple end wedge. In your case, I agree that adding some nice purfling would work well. In fact, I have had instruments actually turn out nicer after having to fix something. |
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| Author: | Stefan [ Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
I'm going to try gluing in a piece of spruce and will see how that looks when sanded flush. Then I may opt for either extra wide purfling or try my hand at a decorative inlay like the romantic guitar above or more likely those ukes. Don't think I have the chops to pull this off by hand, but I do have access to a CNC machine so will experiment with that. (Boy when it goes wrong with those things though!) I also just bent some thicker binding: .100" instead of the .080" I have on the back. This guitar is the first I've attempted in a long time. I see it as a learning experience and am okay with it not looking perfect when I'm done. That said I'll do my best to make it look good. Thanks for all the advice! Stefan |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
The way to do the inlay is to make the piece to be inlaid first. Then you can trace around it to to know where to cut for the cavity. A segment of a circle is a fairly easy inlay and if done in an interesting material can stand alone without other adornment. Another possibility would be to use the same purfling as a border around the top of the inlay as you are using around the edge of the guitar. Be careful the "feature" doesn't develop a life of it's own. |
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| Author: | CarlD [ Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Top repair, tear out from routing end graft |
Here's what I did to save a router binding oops! Used the Dremel w/SM base and inlay bits. Cut a point off a pearl star. Attachment: PICT0307.JPG .This is the back but would work on the top too. Here's a pic of the heel too. Attachment: PICT0310.JPG
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