That's a phat scarph joint for sure
I've got a couple early 1800's guitars in for restorations with joints like that and they are beautiful to look at for sure.
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Hidden scarph joint |
For those people who scarph their pegheads to the neck but don't like the joint line running across the back of the head here is a joint that can eliminate that. The scarph will be hidden and the joint will appear as a line between the neck and peghead transition where if well fitted and carved it will be inconspicuous. This joint also allows many of the peghead shaping operations to be done separate from the neck shaft, as well as allowing the shaft itself to be shaped more easily. |
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| Author: | DanKirkland [ Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
That is very similar to a bridle joint. I seem to recall seeing something similar on 1880s Martins albeit a little different. |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
A standard scarf joint if well done doesn't bother me at all, and I've never seen a player who even looked at one. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
that is a bridal joint. Martin used them and that is why today any guitar over the 28 series ( other than the D35 ) have the valoute on the back of the head stock. the lower series used a V notch joint. very nice. The are stronger than the scarf joint. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
Hi Dan and John, You guys have a good eye - that is the hidden part of the modified bridle joint Martin used on their earlier guitars. Without the "bird's mouth" it becomes more of a modified scarph joint. Once the head plate is glued on the joint will be fully enclosed. I have been working on ways to make neck making a little easier and a bit "greener", so I am using scarphed pegheads and glued on heel blocks. By cutting the taper into the neck shaft with my initial table saw cuts I can get two shafts out of a piece of rough 4/4 lumber 4 1/2 inches wide and 15 - 17 inches long. This also allows me to hog off most of the material of the shaft in a few minutes with a large router bit, and as previously mentioned do much of the peghead shaping and drilling free of the neck. The usual method of making a scarphed peghead uses a shaft the same width as the peghead so more of the wood winds up in the "bin". It also makes it difficult to use a router bit to shape the full length of the shaft . I have seen people who can do that in a few minutes with a draw knife- but I'm not one of them. I do like making the modified bridle joint Martin used, but it requires slightly thicker material (rough 5/4) which is sometimes harder to source, and is not quite as "green". |
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| Author: | TimAllen [ Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
Clay, that's an intriguing joint. I like the "green" aspect. Not having the experience of many of the folks here, I am not entirely clear on how that joint works or how to make it. If you feel like it, it would be nice to see a little more on it and how you cut it. I also was interested because I'd never seen the spelling "scarph," so I looked it up. From: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/scarph Scarf....Also scarph... "Origin of scarf2 1490–1500; < Old Norse skarfr (derivative of skera to cut) end cut from a beam (hence perhaps a piece of cloth cut off, i.e., scarf1); compare Swedish skarv patch. [continuing from dictionary.com] ...from the Web for scarph "The long tapered end of one piece of timber made to fay into a scarph at the end of another piece, to gain length." The Sailor's Word-Book|William Henry Smyth |
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| Author: | Ruby50 [ Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
In my reprinted 1867 "The Sailor's Word-Book" it is spelled both ways, but the definition is a little different - are there 2 versions of that book? In wooden boat construction the scarf(ph) is used in dozens of places. In mast making, the rule is that a 12:1 slope yields a piece of wood as strong as a single piece of the same length. Ed |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
The way I cut this joint is to first decide the angle I want the peghead to have in relation to the neck (usually 11 to 14 degrees). I then set the saw blade to that angle and using a tenoning jig (homemade or otherwise) cut the angle on the fretboard side of the neck blank. The second cut is a cut parallel to the back of the neck and slightly below it. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
The angles and depths of the side cuts are chosen to remove enough wood to hide the scarph and provide a space for the peghead to join the neck. The side cuts form an angle with the back cut. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
That's a phat scarph joint for sure I've got a couple early 1800's guitars in for restorations with joints like that and they are beautiful to look at for sure. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
The peghead "excavation" can be made either by measurement and layout lines or by constructing a jig that will cut a "ramp" at the same angle as the peghead/neck angle that is as wide as the flat surface cut on the back of the neck (as in the first photo in the first post). The side cuts can then be determined from measuring the neck and transferring the measurements to the peghead and cutting them close with a saw and fitting with a chisel and files. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
Martin had a number of joint they used. These were artfully executed. The ice cream cone heel is my favorite , bridal joint and the v. here you can clearly see the dart valoute or whatever you wish to call it. This gave a nice mechanical hold as well increasing the glue surface area. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
The modified bridle joint (with bird's beak) Martin used is similar, but requires using thicker stock and a few more cuts. It is a more elegant solution and fun to make. This neck is going on a "size 2" travel guitar and is getting a "snake head" to slip inside the endblock. |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
Clever Clay. I like the look of that scarph. Alan |
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| Author: | Ruby50 [ Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
Clay I like the way this joint allows you to shape each piece before assembly so you get a nice, crisp line at that point John Hall Do you have an image of the inside of an ice cream cone heel joint? Ed |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
there is a good article on this subject in the guitar maker mag I will look to see where I have the photos and upload asap |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
Here are some pictures of the peghead after the veneer is glued on and some of the shaping is done. The peghead needed to be a little bit short and stubby for me to put a 25" S.L. neck in a size 2 body (I didn't want to use a 24.5"S.L. these normally had). I rounded some of the edges, but I'm debating whether I should sharpen them up again, or go with the softer "organic" look (organic is a "thing" now isn't it?  )
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
Here are a couple of simple jigs I use for neck making. When you find ways to improve them please share. The jig that is angled with a slot lets me use a router to rout a "ramp" in a peghead blank that matches the angle cut on the neck shaft. I then do the side cuts by hand. The jig with the "V" brackets holds the neck at an angle to make the "V" cut on the modified bridle joint, but here I am using it to give some guidance with doing the side cuts. Since I taper the neck blank to conserve wood I need a jig to hold it at the proper angle when cutting the truss rod slot. This is essentially a non adjustable taper jig that traps the neck in position |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
Just to complete this thread I thought I would show the glued and finished joint. If the factories would adopt it they could save a lot of wood. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
Looks great Clay. Complicated little thing there but worth it in the end. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
After you do a couple it's not too difficult to make. Much simpler than the bird's beak joint Martin used. I'm sure a CNC machine could knock it out quickly and make a perfect fit every time. I'm sure Andy Birko could do it. |
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| Author: | klooker [ Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden scarph joint |
Sort of related. Probably not everyone's cup of tea but this is a disguised scarf joint. Kevin Looker |
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