Official Luthiers Forum!
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Short Neck question
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=52995		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  nathanpeirson [ Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Short Neck question
Hi all, I have a friend who has asked if I can cut a guitar neck off at the 5th fret and regraft the headstock there, so the nut is in the position of the 5th fret. He thinks it would be the same as putting a capo on at the 5th fret and wouldn't need to change the scale length. That sounds a bit fishy to me. It would be an experiment but do any of you have thoughts about this...other than why and don't. Thanks.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
It would be exactly like putting a capo at the 5th fret. One problem would be dealing with the truss rod. Also, the neck is wider at the 5th fret so the headstock would not match in width.
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Tell your friend that a capo is cheaper and less risky. Like Barry, I see potential truss rod problems (as in: if the guitar has a truss rod at all, that’s a problem), and the headstock would be skinnier than the neck at the 5th fret. Another big problem is how to make the joint sturdy. You can’t just butt joint a headstock onto the end of a neck. I would remove the neck and replace it with a short neck before I would cut up the existing neck.
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
You have already heard the "don't", so I will ask the "why"? Knowing why may offer some other suggestions to achieve the same goal.
I agree with Don, replacing the neck would be easier than modifying the existing one, and would offer the option of reversibility.
If you do modify the existing neck you could scarph the neck under the fingerboard and re-taper the neck. As Barry mentioned dealing with the truss rod would be another problem.
Knowing what the person wants the end result to be may offer a solution that hasn't been considered.
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Expanding a bit on the idea (not of cutting up an existing neck, but of creating a shorter scale instrument):

If you start from scratch with a new neck, there is no reason why it can't work out fine. You are inherently creating an instrument with a shorter scale. I've done that myself; I wanted to build a baritone guitar with a rough target for the scale length, and the easiest way to get there was to use a longer scale fret template (like for a 6 string bass) and put the nut at the 2nd fret location. It works fine. You need to tinker with the saddle compensation a bit. There is an awesome calculator on the StewMac website that helps you determine the right amount of saddle compensation, depending on scale length. Getting a truss rod of the correct size may take some research, or you can make one from scratch. This can all work out fine. But it won't work out well to literally cut up an existing neck.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
If you need a short truss rod, LMI has custom rods. I bought one when I built a size 5 (basically Martin long scale cut off at the third fret) and it worked out fine.
Author:  Freeman [ Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Nathan, several people have told you the most obvious problem but I'll just briefly go thru all the reasons this might be a bad idea. To put things in perspective, all the necks I build now are scarf joined two piece construction with the head glued on to the neck stick so like many builders here, I have some idea of what is involved with this configuration.

First, you will need to cut of the head at some angle and then cut the neck off at the 5th fret at the same angle. That is going to be very difficult to do accurately, particularly if the neck is still attached to the body.

Second, it is frustratingly hard to jig and clamp the head at a 16 (or whatever) degree angle to the neck. Glue acts as a lubricant and the pieces want to slide all over the place, so you will have some creative clamping involved.

Next, the neck at the fifth fret will be slightly wider and deeper than at the nut. You will need to make a transition between the two.

The truss rod may or may not be a problem depending on the style that is in there. With a single acting compression rod in theory you could retread it, with a double acting rod you MIGHT be able to pull it out thru the cut off neck and substitute a shorter one.

Depending on how the bridge was compensated you may find you have too much for the shorter scale length.

The marker dots will be in the wrong place.

You may find that the frets need work. Particularly the troublesome body joint area.

You will need to refinish the neck where you've done all the work.

You'll make a new nut, do all the setup stuff

The guitar will no longer fit a normal case.

The guitar won't actually be the same as capoing at the 5th fret unless you tune it up five semi tones. If you tune a very short scale to E standard the strings will be very slack, you and your friend should spend some serious time with a string tension calculator.

Those thoughts come immediately, give me a few minutes and I'll think of some more.
Author:  nathanpeirson [ Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Well, I just met with my friend, and I want to make it clear, this is a job for a friend and not "client" in the strict sense. The guitar is a Takamine cutaway that was picked up in a pawn shop. The neck has had some work done on it in the past and badly repaired. Cutting down would eliminate that area. He just wants to have fun with it and have an odd instrument that would be tuned to a A pitch instead of E. It will be quirky to say the least. I have no idea what to expect with the neck. I will remove the fingerboard and hopefully get a clearer picture of what kind of adhesive was used on the neck joint. It appears it may have been removed in the past. The fingerboard is clearly slightly thinner than the neck width and you can feel the difference. If they pulled the neck to fix the break, who knows what they used to glue it back on. Upon closer inspection I even found 2 very small pins that look to be possibly toe nailing it in. Good grief. I'll try and post pictures. I like a challenge and have tackled a few in my search for greater knowledge and experience in guitar repair/building. I may have taken on a bit more of one this time.
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Hi Nathan,
If the fingerboard has been removed in the past they may have used the small pins as locating pins to make sure it went back in its proper location. If the neck was originally bound, but that is missing the fingerboard would be slightly narrower than the neck. Without seeing it , it is hard to say what the story is.
On MIMF.com in the repair section there is a discussion (Ex-wife ran over guitar) where someone repaired a guitar by scarphing on a new peghead. You might find some of that information useful.
Some Takamine guitars are decent instruments and like Yamaha have their admirers. Whenever one of them sees it you will get the credit as the "Butcher of Nakatsugawa". gaah laughing6-hehe
If a decent repair could be made to take it back to original, that is what I would do.
Whatever you decide good luck on the project. [:Y:]
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Given your explanation of the state of the neck, I understand you willingness to try cutting it down. But. . . I think you would be much happier with the results if you just made a new, shorter neck. Even if you did a not great job from a woodworking perspective it would still look much better than a the modification you propose would end up looking and you would have a lot more control over the variables.

I would check out mandolin truss rods. A typical scale 14 fret guitar with the top 5 fret positions lopped off would probably put you in the range of a mandolin rod with some adjusting to your design.

If you make a new neck, take some time to consider the geometry of the peghead you put on to make sure it will still fit in the narrower neck section of its case.
Author:  nathanpeirson [ Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Short Neck question
Well, I pulled the fingerboard off to get a look. I was surprised to find an aluminum channel covering the truss rid. Excuse my inexperience but is this normal? I also find it is a tenon neck. I was hoping to remove the neck to make my cuts but not exactly sure how with a tenon neck. I guess drill a couple holes for the steam needle but not sure where. Any ideas?Image
Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Ruby50 [ Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Peter McKee wrote this about Pete Seeger's long neck banjo:

"Just before he shipped out to Saipan during World War II, Pete took his Vega Whyte Laydie to legendary luthier John D’Angelico in New York’s Lower East Side and asked him to saw off the neck at the nut. He then had D’Angelico insert a neck extension which allowed the addition of two extra frets and had it glued in place. Now, with his extended neck, Pete could lower songs played out of C down to Bb."

True it's only 4 strings, but if Pete Seeger can launch a whole new type of instrument by sawing off the neck at the nut, then so can you.

Good luck

Ed
Author:  Clay S. [ Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Yeah, but it's different when you are shortening things by sawing them off at the nuts! wow7-eyes laughing6-hehe
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Very interesting project. Talk about a short scale. I assume he is planning to tune A D G C E a.

I see no reason why it won't work. I'm just glad it's not me doing it. Keep us informed.
Author:  John Arnold [ Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Quote:
Well, I pulled the fingerboard off to get a look. I was surprised to find an aluminum channel covering the truss rod. Excuse my inexperience but is this normal?


Yes. That is the Gotoh truss rod used by many Japanese guitars. Martin also used them from the mid-1980's until the change to two-way rods in 2006.
These rods can be shortened by removing the inner rod and sawing off the aluminum channel. The rod itself can be shortened by sawing off the anchor, threading it with a 10-32 die, and putting a hex nut on it with Loctite. The reason for not cutting the threaded end of the rod is the rolled 5mm metric threads. That means the threaded part is larger in diameter than the rod itself. While it is possible to thread it to the slightly smaller 10-32 size, the Allen nut will no longer work.
Another mod you may consider is to move the centrally-located metal block in the channel. The purpose of this little block is to bend the rod in a concave up curve, so that tightening the rod will tend to bow the channel upward in the center.
Also note that the inner rod is wrapped with tape in a few locations to prevent buzzing. Be sure you keep that feature after shortening it.
If you sense that I have direct experience with this, you would be right. I have shortened many of these, since I prefer to have the nut located at the neck block, instead of extending it through the upper transverse brace, as Martin and most Japanese guitars were done.
This is my favorite design of all adjustable rods. They are ultimately reliable, since the compressive force is borne by the channel, and the neck bending action is very positive. This eliminates the issue with anchoring a single action rod in mahogany, which is not particularly hard. The only 'improvement' I ever consider is to replace the aluminum channel with hardwood like sugar maple or locust.
Author:  nathanpeirson [ Sun May 10, 2020 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Well, I am almost done. Just need to clean up the frets and nut. I wonder now that it is at a higher tuning, what gauge of string would be appropriate? It will get the A D G C E A tuning, like it had a capo. Any thoughts? I'll post some pictures I took along the way in a bit.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun May 10, 2020 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Hi Nathan,
If it is being tuned the same as if it had a capo then the same set of strings he used before should work fine.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Sun May 10, 2020 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Remember, it is basically a normal guitar with a permanent capo at the 5th fret.
Author:  profchris [ Mon May 11, 2020 3:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Barry Daniels wrote:
Remember, it is basically a normal guitar with a permanent capo at the 5th fret.


Agreed, and that gives you a starting point.

But at the same tension, shorter strings feel stiffer under the fingers (technically, have less compliance) than longer strings. So if you want to keep the same feel when playing on the lower frets, you might want to go a fraction lighter.

As always, there's trial and error involved.
Author:  nathanpeirson [ Mon May 18, 2020 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Well, for better or worse, here are a few shots of the process. I think there are a few things that would have made this easier, but as a learning process it was interesting.
Author:  Ruby50 [ Tue May 19, 2020 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Pretty interesting looking. How does it sound? Is there any bass to it? Well done.

Ed
Author:  nathanpeirson [ Wed May 20, 2020 12:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Thanks! Sounds remarkably good. It has clearer harmonics than using a capo at the 5th fret.
The owner wanted 13’s on it. Seemed a bit heavy to me but sounds good. I would love to hear it in Nashville tuning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed May 20, 2020 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Ha! That's awesome! Nice job.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed May 20, 2020 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
Looks good, nice job!
Author:  bcombs510 [ Wed May 20, 2020 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Short Neck question
It looks great, nice job. Nashville tuning was a new one for me, thanks for mentioning it. For the uninitiated - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville ... _strung%29
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/