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new guitar initial setup
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=53158		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  phavriluk [ Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  new guitar initial setup
Tonight I installed the bridge on my scratchbuilt (by me) project. When I install the saddle, I'd like to get a good initial height. So what's to do? No measuring string height at 12th fret, no strings installed and seeing as there's a pinless bridge in the game I'd prefer to find a way to minimize messing with the strings.

So what passes for judgement in my head suggests I drop a straightedge from the first fret to the top of the saddle and measure the gap at the 12th fret and when I get to 3/32" E, 5/64" e, and string it up first time, it's a decent place to start from.

Any suggestions/improvements/chastisements will be gratefully accepted.

Thanks!
Author:  Mark Mc [ Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: new guitar initial setup
Peter don’t forget that string tension will pull the neck forward, so that will change the angles that you are dealing with. It will also pull the bridge up a bit. Overall, you can expect the action with 6 tensioned strings to be higher than you measure with a straightedge on an unstrung neck.
Author:  Colin North [ Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: new guitar initial setup
Mark Mc wrote:
Peter don’t forget that string tension will pull the neck forward, so that will change the angles that you are dealing with. It will also pull the bridge up a bit. Overall, you can expect the action with 6 tensioned strings to be higher than you measure with a straightedge on an unstrung neck.

Which is preferable to being too low.
Peter, that's pretty much what I do, guestimate saddle height roughly, your is fine.
Then set action (I set it a bit low to start with), sort out nut slot heights, set saddle height.
Then leave for a week, breaking it in by playing, and fine tuning the set up.
Author:  DennisK [ Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: new guitar initial setup
Theoretically you just string it up with the saddle tall, measure the action at the 12th fret and see how much lower you want it, and then shave twice that much off the saddle. The problem is if you're trying to get it as low as possible, then one tiny bit too far and you have to start all over.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: new guitar initial setup
Peter step one for me is adjusting the truss rod to have a very straight neck for now. Once that is adjusted a dummy saddle is your friend.

Pinless bridge or not you still can remove the saddle with the strings on generally provided that you provide s suitable number of winds for each string around the tuner posts so that the strings can be slacked sufficiently.

My process would then be:

1). Put in a saddle that is too high and the truss rod has been adjusted for a straight neck.

2). String and tune to pitch.

3). Observe the neck on the bass and treble sides from the headstock sighting down the two respective edges of the neck. Ideally when adjusting a truss rod we want less relief on the treble side and more on the bass side. How you fretted this instrument though may not provide that. Get the neck as straight as you can without it being in back bow for now.

4). Cut nut slots and cut them well or you will be doing the saddle height more than once and that's not necessary. The nut slot method that I waste my breath describing here over and over and over and over is what I would recommend because it takes the saddle completely right out of play. Fretting and holding between the 2nd and 3rd and observing string height over the first is what I speak of and what I do.

5). Be sure to cut the nut slots with strings on, tuned to pitch so you can cut, check, cut, check, cut, check.

6). Now with the nut slots at least close, the thing tuned to pitch, the truss rod now adjusted for minimal relief if it will do it on the treble side and more relief on the bass side measure at your 12th fret.

7). I like and provide for an OM or D*ead guitar 4/64th" for the high e at the 12th and 5.5/64th" for the low e at the 12th for a finger style or light attack flat picker. For a bluegrass player I want 4.5/64th" for the high e and 6.5/64th" at the 12th for the low e. YMMV of course this can be tweaked for preferences and how hard someone attacks as well as any limiting factors of the instrument such as a body hump, ski ramp or poor fret work requiring higher action to not buzz.

Final set-up is an art and it can be a very sequential process where all that we do only has to be done once at least for a while as the thing settles in.

Regarding the pinless bridge simply slacking the strings and putting a capo lightly in place on the first fret and you can pull on the strings in front of the saddle with one hand lifting them all and with your nippers grab and lift one corner of the saddle and then you can pull it out sideways. The guitar should be in a vice for this so it does not move. It's also not unusual to sacrifice a set of strings when making a nut and setting up the instrument initially. When I make a nut I file the nut top right onto the strings using the strings as a nut top height guide. The strings are removed and pitched after being used for this and new strings are installed for the final set-up.

Hope this helps. If you have any questions you can PM me or post here, PM is faster in that I get an email.
Author:  phavriluk [ Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: new guitar initial setup
Thanks, everybody. Much appreciated. And wonder of wonders, I perceive all the advice as consistent. I think I'm getting a whole bunch of experience to draw from, and I'm encouraged that my 'gotta start somewhere' train is still on the tracks.

I'll speak up after my adventure settles down.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: new guitar initial setup
A quick and dirty method to get a rough height for your starting point is to support the headstock on something and for a steel string put 6lbs of weight on each shoulder of the upper bout to mimic string tension.

Adjust the truss rod to get a pretty flat neck and lay a straightedge along the neck resting on the first fret and maybe 1/8” or so off the 12th. See where it hits your saddle blank. Make it a tad higher. Then do like Hesh recommended.

If you have made a few guitars with the same neck attachment system Sylvan Wells described an initial saddle height technique years ago and I use it all the time.

Take one of your guitars that is set up well and has proper saddle height. Detune the guitar so there is no tension. Lay a straightedge along the neck resting on the first fret and on the saddle and measure the gap at the 12th fret and make a spacer that thickness. I think mine is 0.050”

With your new guitar put in the saddle blank, and lay the straightedge along the neck again with the spacer under it at 12 and mark where it hits the saddle. That will get you in the ballpark. I usually add about 1/32” so I have some wiggle room for initial saddle blank height.

Let it sit for a while after string up before you do any fine tuning

I always wind up wasting a set of strings with initial setup and intonation.
Author:  Freeman [ Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: new guitar initial setup
The entire time I am building a guitar I'm checking the neck geometry against the bridge. It doesn't matter the type of guitar, acoustic or electric, I want the fret plane to hit the top of the bridge at its lowest possible adjustment - for an acoustic that is the top of the bridge without a saddle. During construction I might have to doe some mickey mouse fittings to check that - put some business cards on the fretboard to emulate frets, tape the bridge in place, whatever it takes, but when the neck and bridge are finally on I know they will be in the right place.

I adjust the neck to zero relief and level the frets. I want them perfect.

If I have designed and built the neck correctly when I string it up I should see a tiny bit of relief pulled in by tension. Often it is almost perfect (the double neck I just built had 4 and 5 thousands repectively). If the relief isn't perfect I adjust it. At this point I've got a nut and saddle in the guitar that are too high.

I like to let the guitar sit overnight or for a few days with initial string tension, then I lower the nut slots until they are a few thousands higher than my final target and bring the saddle down likewise. I do whatever compensating I'm going to do with the saddle, knowing that if it comes down more that will help with the intonation.

I like to take the guitar in the house, play it for a week or so, then come back and finalize the setup. It usually needs a new set of strings at that point. I'll check it again in a month or two.....
Author:  Bri [ Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: new guitar initial setup
Hesh, if you would be so kind, please describe the shape of the slot in cross section.
Is it straight or arced towards the fret or tuners? Or something else?
Thanks,
B
Author:  phavriluk [ Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: new guitar initial setup
Are we sure about that .5" spacer?
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: new guitar initial setup
phavriluk wrote:
Are we sure about that .5" spacer?


Sorry I meant 0.050” :)
Author:  phavriluk [ Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: new guitar initial setup
Makes perfect sense.

Thanks!
Author:  phavriluk [ Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: new guitar initial setup
Thanks everybody, I'll be visiting this advice after the guitar settles down for a few weeks. So far, so good.

Initial setup couldn't have been easier. I didn't do any. I took my unmodified straight from the package tusq compensated saddle (fourth one I've used, all the same model), stuck it in the bridge and laid my straightedge from the first fret to the saddle, and measured. Damned if the straightedge didn't clear the 12th fret by 3/32" on the E side and a bit less on the e side. This was a case of glue it up, string it up, see how it works.
Author:  phavriluk [ Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: new guitar initial setup
Thanks everybody, I'll be visiting this advice after the guitar settles down for a few weeks. So far, so good.

Initial setup couldn't have been easier. I didn't do any. I took my unmodified straight from the package tusq compensated saddle (fourth one I've used, all the same model), stuck it in the bridge and laid my straightedge from the first fret to the saddle, and measured. Damned if the straightedge didn't clear the 12th fret by 3/32" on the E side and a bit less on the e side. This was a case of glue it up, string it up, see how it works.

I'd paid a lot of attention to leveling the fingerboard and frets and slotting the nut with help from that s-m doodad that stacks a bunch of feeler gauges in a clamp and you file down to the feeler gauges.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: new guitar initial setup
Bri wrote:
Hesh, if you would be so kind, please describe the shape of the slot in cross section.
Is it straight or arced towards the fret or tuners? Or something else?
Thanks,
B


Hey Bri - I hope that you are safe and sound in these terrible time.

Nut slot descriptions - We used the Stew Mac or other variety of gauged nut slot files that produce a nut slot with vertical sides, a rounded bottom and the slot front to back, frets to tuners is flat with no hump or change in the break angle desired. We want our slots to not bind and have the very slightest of wiggle room so that one gauge up in string selection will also not bind. Or a slot cut for a 12 can handle a 13 fine too.

We don't like needle files and the V shaped results because that pinches the string which can be a problem. Acoustic builders can get away with V shaped slots but the guy with his Floyd doing wild dives and swells may break a string if it gets pinched in the nut slot.

If when tuning you've ever heard a "ping" noise and watched the tuner go from no movement to jumping and going sharp that's a poorly cut nut slot that pinches the string and is likely V shaped. It's also way too common.....

Now the front to back I've read some of the better known acoustic builders ideas on a variable break able with a slot that has a hump in it and I would not recommend it. I understand the rational (and don't agree...) of more string surface contact but the reality of the implementation by many who do this either inadvertently or not is a break angle at the face of the nut that is too shallow. When the break angle is too shallow a ham fisted player can make the guitar produce a sitar sound as the vibrating string wave breaches the nut slot at the face and the vibrating wave travels past the nut face into the slot. Hence the Ravi Cankersore sound.

Oh yeah - break angle half the set back angle of the head stock unless that's poorly done. I would want at least 4 degrees more is better. I always shot for around 7.5 degrees on my nut slot break angles.
Author:  doncaparker [ Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: new guitar initial setup
Hesh--

It is always great to get your advice. I have a follow-up question about the break angle. It has always made sense to me to try to get the nut slots to sit at an angle that is about half of the headstock angle (15 degrees for mine), so it is good to hear that you think that is the right way to go. However, since this is being done by hand, and not by some repeatable process with the angle guided by a tool, there is going to be some "hump" in the slot. It's just unavoidable. You don't see a problem with that, right? I'm not saying it is a goal; the goal should be to hold the file at a 7.5 degree tilt, relative to the fingerboard (half my 15 degree headstock angle). But that will necessarily range from 5 to 10 degrees, because it is a hand process. As long as none of the file strokes wind up being at or near zero degrees relative to the fingerboard, it should be fine. Am I thinking about that the right way?

Again, thanks for the guidance.
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