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| Update on Guitar Dispute http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=53197 |
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| Author: | stebinus [ Fri May 08, 2020 11:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Update on Guitar Dispute |
Last year I received some very helpful information from members of this forum regarding possible toxic chemicals used in guitar manufacture. At that time I was in a dispute with a particular guitar maker whose identity I didn't reveal because the case had not been resolved. This has now been wrapped up and I wish to report back on the results. https://zagerdisputedocs.tumblr.com/ will take you to a blog I created which has all related materials I submitted to the Better Business Bureau which also has a record of the dispute but without the documents. I hope this will be enlightening to forum members and I thank you again for helping me work it out. I will not be responding to further comments. |
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| Author: | DannyV [ Fri May 08, 2020 2:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
Thank you for sharing that! It's good information. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Fri May 08, 2020 3:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
What an ordeal. Glad it finally worked out. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Fri May 08, 2020 3:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
I always thought Zagers were built abroad and just set up in the USA. |
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| Author: | Pmaj7 [ Fri May 08, 2020 4:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
"suffered a complete loss of over $2395" I can't imagine they are paying more than a couple hundred dollars to their supplier. That's one expensive set up! Pat |
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| Author: | Mike_P [ Fri May 08, 2020 6:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
edited them... they need to completely redacted in summation: are you really that sick in the head to say such things? |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Fri May 08, 2020 7:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
I am surprised the buyer couldn't figure out that the guitar was a problem within the first 30 days. To have it for 6 months, put pick scratches and a ding in it and eventually get all your money back (plus the shipping paid both ways) is quite an accomplishment. "suffered a complete loss of over $2395" Pat wrote: "I can't imagine they are paying more than a couple hundred dollars to their supplier. That's one expensive set up!" Yeah, but they had - his money - now they have to find another fool to buy one of their guitars, and the shipping back and forth probably doubled their investment. Not every guitar sold offers a good value for what you get. Although the instrument might not be a good value to me, to someone who wants an instrument that is easy to play - which is their main selling point - it might be. Amazon sells Mohawk clear precat gloss spray lacquer (102-0410) for $21.58 . It's the same stuff Mohawk sells for $6.77. I'm sure Amazon sells a few cans, especially to low volume users who don't bother to look any further. |
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| Author: | George L [ Fri May 08, 2020 10:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
I'm glad you got this worked out, stebinus. Quote: "Amazon sells Mohawk clear precat gloss spray lacquer (102-0410) for $21.58. It's the same stuff Mohawk sells for $6.77. I'm sure Amazon sells a few cans, especially to low volume users who don't bother to look any further." Last time I looked a little further, Mohawk wanted another $16.58 for shipping. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sat May 09, 2020 9:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
"Last time I looked a little further, Mohawk wanted another $16.58 for shipping." If the information is up to date Mike Plummer is you local rep. - 253-222-8453, mplummer@mohawk-finishing.com . He should be able to get Mohawk supplies for you. |
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| Author: | johnparchem [ Sat May 09, 2020 12:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
It seems even as posted that there are two sides to this. What bothers me more is someone using this site with the sole purpose of trashing a guitar builder/company. If his post was posted on the site I manage I would have deleted it. I do think the BBB was a fine venue for his dispute. |
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| Author: | rlrhett [ Sat May 09, 2020 4:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
I tend to agree. This isn't really the appropriate forum for these kinds of complaints. I am not making a judgment on the merits. IMO this is a builder's forum for builders to talk to builders. Pros, semi-pros, and amateur alike are welcome. But all builders none the less. There are forums from buyers to review gear, talk about their experiences, and give warnings if appropriate. Places like AGF. Just not this one. |
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| Author: | DanKirkland [ Sun May 10, 2020 9:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
I agree with Rhett and john about the use of the forum. Can we get this deleted? At the end of the day the complaint really should've just been between the bbb, manufacturer, and the OP. The OP is using this forum to smear. |
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| Author: | rbuddy [ Sun May 10, 2020 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
Count me in on the delete this thread list. Reading through the "complaint" stuff, well, it made me feel like I should have an application process for customers before I sell an instrument to them to weed out potential problems before they start. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sun May 10, 2020 10:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
If the OP's intention was to smear the seller I think it was a "fail". The sellers only failing was to recognize that the buyer would never be happy with the guitar and to take it back within the trial period and before it was damaged. That the seller took it back after it was damaged, and eventually repaid the buyer in full for an item the buyer damaged is more than most sellers would do. Many would not take it back-period! The BBB has no teeth and can't make the seller do anything, and many people ignore it entirely. It provides a venue for whiners to complain and sellers to respond - that's about it. The only value to this thread is as a cautionary tale to avoid customers that question every detail of the building process. Liquid hide glue most likely starts out as ground hide glue, and I've never heard of a case where it off gases toxins in the air. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Sun May 10, 2020 11:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
Franklin liquid hide glue contains ammonium thiocyanate (<5%). Franklin classifies this as a hazardous chemical and an eye irritant. I am not a doctor but a chemically sensitive person probably does not want to be exposed to this. Does this chemical off-gas after the glue has cured? Who knows? |
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| Author: | johnparchem [ Sun May 10, 2020 11:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
Clay S. wrote: If the OP's intention was to smear the seller I think it was a "fail". The sellers only failing was to recognize that the buyer would never be happy with the guitar and to take it back within the trial period and before it was damaged. That the seller took it back after it was damaged, and eventually repaid the buyer in full for an item the buyer damaged is more than most sellers would do. Many would not take it back-period! The BBB has no teeth and can't make the seller do anything, and many people ignore it entirely. It provides a venue for whiners to complain and sellers to respond - that's about it. The only value to this thread is as a cautionary tale to avoid customers that question every detail of the building process. Liquid hide glue most likely starts out as ground hide glue, and I've never heard of a case where it off gases toxins in the air. I agree, In his case it is a cautionary of what you could run into. I might have bailed before ever shipping the guitar and suggested that the buyer find a local place to get the guitar. Still I would rather see the post from a builder talking about an anonymous customer to get the cautionary tail. |
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| Author: | Tim L [ Sun May 10, 2020 3:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
Barry Daniels wrote: Franklin liquid hide glue contains ammonium thiocyanate (<5%). Franklin classifies this as a hazardous chemical and an eye irritant. I am not a doctor but a chemically sensitive person probably does not want to be exposed to this. Does this chemical off-gas after the glue has cured? Who knows? One would think that if this was really causing irritation it would have been stored well out of the way in its' case...not played enough to put pick marks all over the top. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sun May 10, 2020 4:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
Tim L wrote: One would think that if this was really causing irritation it would have been stored well out of the way in its' case...not played enough to put pick marks all over the top. A very good point. I also don't see the utility of posting a player/manufacturer dispute thread on the OLF. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Mon May 11, 2020 4:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Update on Guitar Dispute |
no one wins a pissing match delete it doesn't belong here |
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