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Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=53257		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Thu May 28, 2020 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
I’m not really into repair work on existing guitars but occasionally people will ask about repairs if they find out you make guitars. An await an end contacted me because someone stepped on her son’s baby Taylor BT2 (about $370 new) and broke off the peg head. I have a picture and it looks like it would be mostly engrain gluing assuming it fits back together neatly. It doesn’t seem to me like a reglue alone would suffice and o don’t want to be bothered with splines or other measures since my shop time is scarce (I’d rather be doing my own projects).

Since I’m not into repairs I have no idea what the going rate for a proper repair would be but I suspect it would approach the value of the instrument. . .

Part of me wants to offer to glue it back together and hope for the best. If they aren’t going to take it to a repair shop then there is nothing to lose by trying. But I don’t want to do that if there is value to be found in a proper repair.
Author:  johnparchem [ Thu May 28, 2020 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
If it is clean and it all fits I would glue it together there is a lot of gluing area.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Thu May 28, 2020 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
Here is another pic.

That is my concern, I don’t feel like there is much flying area. It looks like a lot of endgrain.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Thu May 28, 2020 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
Yeah, I've fixed breaks worse than that. With a finish touch-up that's $100.

Also, I've had people find out I fix guitars and say, "Oh, you're a woodworker? How much to build some new cabinets for my mom's kitchen?". I usually frown and say, "Do you see a table saw around here?". After they look crestfallen, then I say, "I'M A LUTHIER", so they feel really bad.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Thu May 28, 2020 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
Thanks Chris that’s good to know. I’ll have them get an estimate from a local repair person. I’m sure that ballpark would be worth it for them. If for some reason, the cost is much higher and they don’t want to do it, I’ll glue it for free but I’m not going to deal with finish touch up. I only do French polish and don’t want to mess with finish repairs.

Just for clarity, you are saying a hide glue repair should hold with no splines or anything.?.
Author:  Pegasusguitars [ Thu May 28, 2020 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
Bryan, I don't do repairs anymore, but I did do them for more than 30 years before I switched to building only. If you are not prepared to do a really nice job, including the finish work, don't do it. Even if you do it for free, it may not reflect well on you. First thing you know some know -it -all will look at it and tell your friend you did a crumby job. Let a repairperson, who by the way might also do a crumby job, take responsibility. That's their job. Having said that, I know where you're coming from by wanting to help a friend. Good luck!--Bob
Author:  Chris Pile [ Thu May 28, 2020 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
Quote:
Just for clarity, you are saying a hide glue repair should hold with no splines or anything.?.


I tend to take these cases and decide on splines or no splines as I see how the joint is going back together. I believe Hesh isn't a believer in splines, and on my last job like this I planned on using splines, but I thought - try it without and see, if can't get any worse.

It held - no splines. I did veneer the front of the peghead to cover the damage.
You decide.... This was right around Christmas.

https://imgur.com/m5oMaUD

https://imgur.com/9LdxoZH

https://imgur.com/ZtClYVp

https://imgur.com/VkQQx5N
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu May 28, 2020 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
I'm not a great fan of splines either. The break Chris shows looks like a repair that would go back together fairly easily and probably has about as much gluing surface as a scarf joint. The one you are showing looks a bit more complicated - multiple layers of wood to weave back together. It may hold together or it may not. Either way you don't have much to lose. If it holds then you made someone happy, and if it doesn't you may get fewer requests to do repairs and have more time to build your own stuff. Win-Win! bliss
Author:  phavriluk [ Fri May 29, 2020 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
Anybody ask Taylor about a new neck (or buying a damaged guitar with a good neck)? Easier than changing strings.
Author:  bluescreek [ Fri May 29, 2020 5:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
take it to a pro
there is too much that can go wrong
Author:  TRein [ Fri May 29, 2020 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
It's worth checking with Taylor about purchasing a replacement neck if the owner is the original, registered owner. Taylor tends to take good care of their customers. The damaged neck would need to be sent back. At least that was my experience when I was the repairman at a big guitar store.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Fri May 29, 2020 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
From what I can see that looks like a fairly challenging break for a first effort. If a new neck doesn’t work out I’d refer it to an experienced repair person and ask if you can sit in on the repair and learn from it.
Author:  George L [ Fri May 29, 2020 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
Or ... you could sell them one of your guitars. :D
Author:  Tim Mullin [ Fri May 29, 2020 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
TRein wrote:
It's worth checking with Taylor about purchasing a replacement neck if the owner is the original, registered owner. Taylor tends to take good care of their customers. The damaged neck would need to be sent back. At least that was my experience when I was the repairman at a big guitar store.

+1 I’m not an « authorized » Taylor repair centre, but I am a verifiable business and they’ve been quite responsive to anything I’ve asked. Have no idea what a replacement neck will cost, but a quick phone call will sort that out. Have the serial number handy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Fri May 29, 2020 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
No one has mentioned this, but it looks like the break is the through the finger joint that Taylor puts into the scarf. If that is the case, then essentially this is a joint that has already had glue applied and so will be difficult to reglue.
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri May 29, 2020 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
If buying a new neck is uneconomic then you might consider making a new peghead and scarphing it on the neck shaft.

https://www.mimf.com//phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6172
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Fri May 29, 2020 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
Barry Daniels wrote:
No one has mentioned this, but it looks like the break is the through the finger joint that Taylor puts into the scarf. If that is the case, then essentially this is a joint that has already had glue applied and so will be difficult to reglue.


Good eye Barry! I thought the break looked strange. I didn't know they used a finger joint but that would definitely explain the appearance.
Author:  Hesh [ Fri May 29, 2020 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
Professional shops in these parts charge far more than what my friend Chris quoted and depending on the shop this one may be a toss up on replacing the guitar or not....

It's all end grain, what Barry said too about the joint from the construction of the guitar being compromised.

We would decline the job because the economics are not there. Our current rate for a perfect or near perfect headstock repair with touch-up and perhaps a fret dress too because when the headstock has been broken off the entire fret plane can get wonky.... would only be $100 less than replacing the guitar. But again the end grain on this one is definitely danger Will Robinson.

We would not take this in.

A new neck from Taylor likely would also cost close to replacing the guitar. We used to do Taylor warranty work and we dropped them deciding to stay with Martin only. This would not be a warranty claim and the neck would have to be purchased. I don't have pricing but I strongly suspect that a replacement all up, installed, dressed out, set-up would also approach the cost of replacing the entire guitar.

You never know someone may just welcome an excuse to get a new guitar.
Author:  banjopicks [ Fri May 29, 2020 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
With that said, glue it up and hope for the best! What's to lose.
Author:  doncaparker [ Fri May 29, 2020 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
Hesh wrote:
Professional shops in these parts charge far more than what my friend Chris quoted and depending on the shop this one may be a toss up on replacing the guitar or not....

It's all end grain, what Barry said too about the joint from the construction of the guitar being compromised.

We would decline the job because the economics are not there. Our current rate for a perfect or near perfect headstock repair with touch-up and perhaps a fret dress too because when the headstock has been broken off the entire fret plane can get wonky.... would only be $100 less than replacing the guitar. But again the end grain on this one is definitely danger Will Robinson.

We would not take this in.

A new neck from Taylor likely would also cost close to replacing the guitar. We used to do Taylor warranty work and we dropped them deciding to stay with Martin only. This would not be a warranty claim and the neck would have to be purchased. I don't have pricing but I strongly suspect that a replacement all up, installed, dressed out, set-up would also approach the cost of replacing the entire guitar.

You never know someone may just welcome an excuse to get a new guitar.


I think most folks can understand the concept of "totaling" a car. I would use that analogy for them. Sure, the guitar can theoretically be repaired, or just replace the neck (the most efficient fix, given that it is a Taylor with an easily removed neck), but both options cost more than the value of the guitar.

Some folks might not understand the gravity of this break to the health of the guitar, and the difficulty of a decent repair. It calls for explanation, sometimes.
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri May 29, 2020 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
Once the neck is off (two screws?) then 10 seconds with a miter saw to cut a scarph on the neck at the end of the fingerboard, and a bit longer to make a new peghead and scarph it to the neck. As long as the client is happy with a guitar that works and is not a stickler for originality it could be a fairly simple repair for an hobbyist luthier who doesn't have to worry about billable hours.
It's a shame we live in a society where - "oh it's broken, throw it away" has become the rule rather than the exception. I can understand that it may not be economically practicable for a professional luthier to take on the job but those that dabble in wood butchery might give it a go.
Author:  Woodie G [ Sat May 30, 2020 6:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
Any repair you make ends up with three possible outcomes:

- The customer experiences no further issues and refers others to you for services...you really did want to spend less time building, right?

- The repair fails (this is very likely if simply reglued as suggested above) and you are stuck with repairing the repair...which is now a much more involved repair which requires splining or a neck replacement

- The repair fails and you wash your hands of what has now become a time-sucking mess in which you landed as a consequence of ignoring Mr. Breakstone's sage advice...reputational damage to follow

Baby Taylors and Little Martins seem to lead tough lives as a consequence of how and where they are played. Short of some serious reinforcement, you'll see that instrument again if you simply reglue what is clearly a break directly through the finger joint (unwisely used for a time by Taylor before the switch back to a full scarf joint).

Do yourself and the customer a favor...send them down the road to a Taylor-authorized repair shop for a new neck, or suggest they pick up a used BT-2 off Craigslist (not common, but I have seen them offered)/ from GC/MF. Chances are that the cost of an instrument off Craigslist or from the Used rack at MF/GC may be largely offset by selling the damaged instrument as-is...I'm always surprised at what these fetch.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sat May 30, 2020 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
Woodie makes several good points, and it is quite reasonable to not want to become involved in what she has described as a potential "time sucking mess". At this point you don't owe the person any positive outcome to their problem, once you begin you must be "all in" with it. Standing on the side lines, without knowing the details and relationships of the people involved, it is easy to speculate how things may work out.
Most of the repairs I do are on instruments I own. On the rare occasion where they belong to someone else I have to feel confident I understand what needs to be done and can make a good job of it. If I have any trepidation about the outcome I turn the job away.
Author:  phavriluk [ Sat May 30, 2020 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
One opinion: Looks like with no supporting information, that BT led a hard and hazardous life (stepped on???). The advice that the owner see a Taylor specialist sounds good to me. If OP makes a repair, I suspect that guitar will be returning for other attention later and time spent on it will be a discomfort, a bad penny that can't be got rid of.
Author:  doncaparker [ Sat May 30, 2020 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I repair this or refer them to a luthier.
There is a lot of discussion of protecting the builder/repair person, and all of those concerns are valid and reasonable. For a moment, though, I would like to shift focus to the customer. This is not an heirloom or a guitar with historical importance. It’s a Baby Taylor. The customer probably just wants the least expensive solution to a problem (i.e., her son had a working guitar, and now he doesn’t). The least expensive solution is a new (or used, but new to them) guitar. The customer needs to hear that, the same way the owner of a used Honda Civic needs to hear that fixing the engine will cost more than the car is worth. The hand wringing over repairs needs to be saved for instruments that hold some sort of value, even if it is just the emotional attachment of the customer to the guitar. I doubt that is even at play here. I bet they just want to know if they can avoid the cost of a new guitar by paying for a $20 repair. Seriously. Just give them the bad news, use the totaled car analogy, and help them move on to the next disposable instrument.
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