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strategies for doing "involved" inlay
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Author:  SnowManSnow [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:05 am ]
Post subject:  strategies for doing "involved" inlay
I'm planning on a short vine inlay (about 8') on my current build and wanted to see if anyone had any superior strategies for getting the outline on the fingerboard. I purchased the inlay, so It will likely come on a length of tape.

My question is, what is the best way to keep things strait and get that outline onto the board?
1) simply hold each piece in place and trace?
2) stick the entire inlay down at once before tracing with spray adhesive?
3) inlay the pieces as you go, sanding each one flat (so that your dremmel base won't hit them)?
4) inlay the VINE first and sand flush before attempting the leaves and such?

Just some questions to guide

Thanks for any advise
B
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
The most complex inlay I have done are those traditional torches. They are not terribly complicated to get right. But what I do is hold the piece in place with an awl and trace around it with a pencil and rout out to the pencil line. Drawing a centerline helps and I inlay one piece at a time. I don't think outlining a big complex piece in whole will work out very well. I also inlay them as close to flush as possible or even under a hair. If you simply remove the piece you just inlayed then you don't have to worry about the router base hitting it.
Author:  DennisK [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
I'd do them all at once if they're already perfectly fitted to eachother. Have you tried spray adhesive before? I haven't, but it may be good for sticking them all down while they're still on the tape. I use a few dots of elmer's glue on each piece, but it does take some experience to know exactly how much to use so it won't pop off too easily, but also won't risk breaking the shell before it comes off. I also press down on the piece with my thumbnail while scribing to reduce the chance of popping it off prematurely.

I will often do wood inlays in multiple layers, but only when it's easier to route through a piece after inlaying than to cut and fit it together with other pieces before inlaying. If the pieces are already fitted then there's no point. And I don't do it with shell because the dust is harmful, and risks chipping the already-installed pieces.

Here's one that would be near impossible to do without layering :)
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
Stick the inlay pieces down where you want them with a very small drop of super glue or two. Trace around them with the point of a knife or scriber. Carefully pry them up: you can also soften the glue with some acetone. Rub over the fingerboard area with some chalk, and then wipe off the excess. You end up with a nice white line on the dark fingerboard to rout to.
Author:  ballbanjos [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
I'll second Alan's recommendation. I use tiny drops of yellow glue instead of super glue, but it's the same principal. If they're stuck too much to the to-be-inlayed surface, I'll hit it for a second with a heat gun or an iron and the glue will let go. The key is to scribe as closely as possible to the inlay, and to route out the cavity to where you just take out the chalk line.

For big, multi piece inlays, I'll perfectly fit them together, super glue them together with pieces of toothpick on the top surface reinforcing the joints (the toothpicks will be sanded off during leveling the inlay), and trace around them/inlay them as a single unit. This also keeps unwanted filler from squeezing up between the pieces and creating lines where you don't want them.

Dave
Author:  ballbanjos [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
I'll second Alan's recommendation. I use tiny drops of yellow glue instead of super glue, but it's the same principal. If they're stuck too much to the to-be-inlayed surface, I'll hit it for a second with a heat gun or an iron and the glue will let go. The key is to scribe as closely as possible to the inlay, and to route out the cavity to where you just take out the chalk line.

For big, multi piece inlays, I'll perfectly fit them together, super glue them together with pieces of toothpick on the top surface reinforcing the joints (the toothpicks will be sanded off during leveling the inlay), and trace around them/inlay them as a single unit. This also keeps unwanted filler from squeezing up between the pieces and creating lines where you don't want them. The inlay shown here is half a dozen different pieces of pearl, but inlayed as a single unit.

Dave
Author:  surveyor [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
I like Elmers School Glue for temporarily sticking them down. It doesn't bond well enough to cause any problem and it's cheap. I made me a polykneesian girl too but it ended up looking like a dang skeeter!
Image
Author:  SteveSmith [ Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
I like the toothpick idea. I did the hummingbird with tape on top, glued it with tiny drops of superglue to trace around it and inlayed it in one piece except for the beak which I put in separately. The tape worked but was a bit floppy, of course it was only about 6 pieces.

Attachment:
HummingbirdSmall.jpg
Author:  ballbanjos [ Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
I like those "beaked" inlays! Inlaying into lighter color woods like those surely requires a lot of skill in routing for the inlay--very unforgiving. The skeeter and the hummingbird both came out great!

Dave
Author:  SteveSmith [ Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
I use the pneumatic inlay tool (from John Hall at Blues Creek Guitars) with an 0.020" bit to get close to the line. Next I use Xacto knifes, tiny shop-made chisels (from Xacto blades) and sharpened dental tools for the final fit. Getting a good outline of the inlay is important so anything that helps there is good.
Author:  ballbanjos [ Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
I use John's pneumatic tool too. Getting right to line, I use a higher speed dental handpiece in a Stew Mac router base using tiny dental burs. Every once in a while I use little model makers carving tools where even the dental bur is too big.

Dave
Author:  SteveSmith [ Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
I've been looking at some of the used dental tools. They look like they would be ideal.
Author:  ballbanjos [ Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
The one that I like is the NSK Presto--it's actually a dental lab handpiece, not one that's used in the mouth. It runs at several hundred thousand RPM and takes standard push in burs. Ceramic bearings have zero runout...

Doesn't need much air either.

Dave
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
I stick the inlays together with bits of paper on the back as I build them up. When the unit is all done I paper the top surface together (making sure it's level) and sand off the paper on the back, reducing the inlay to a uniform thickness.
Author:  dzsmith [ Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
I usually glue my paper pattern to the wood to be inlayed and go around the outline with an exacto.
If I bought a multi-piece inlay and did not have a pattern, I reckon I’d place them on paper and mark the perimeters with a thin pencil line, then glue the paper to the wood.

Another thing that worked well was to paint the wood with whiteout and trace the inlay with a needle.
It requires work to remove the whiteout.
Author:  dzsmith [ Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
ballbanjos wrote:
I'll second Alan's recommendation. I use tiny drops of yellow glue instead of super glue, but it's the same principal. If they're stuck too much to the to-be-inlayed surface, I'll hit it for a second with a heat gun or an iron and the glue will let go. The key is to scribe as closely as possible to the inlay, and to route out the cavity to where you just take out the chalk line.

For big, multi piece inlays, I'll perfectly fit them together, super glue them together with pieces of toothpick on the top surface reinforcing the joints (the toothpicks will be sanded off during leveling the inlay), and trace around them/inlay them as a single unit. This also keeps unwanted filler from squeezing up between the pieces and creating lines where you don't want them. The inlay shown here is half a dozen different pieces of pearl, but inlayed as a single unit.

Dave

That looks great!
I’m still afraid to try engraving.
Any suggestion for a book I can learn from?
Thanks
Author:  ballbanjos [ Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
dzsmith wrote:
ballbanjos wrote:
I'll second Alan's recommendation. I use tiny drops of yellow glue instead of super glue, but it's the same principal. If they're stuck too much to the to-be-inlayed surface, I'll hit it for a second with a heat gun or an iron and the glue will let go. The key is to scribe as closely as possible to the inlay, and to route out the cavity to where you just take out the chalk line.

For big, multi piece inlays, I'll perfectly fit them together, super glue them together with pieces of toothpick on the top surface reinforcing the joints (the toothpicks will be sanded off during leveling the inlay), and trace around them/inlay them as a single unit. This also keeps unwanted filler from squeezing up between the pieces and creating lines where you don't want them. The inlay shown here is half a dozen different pieces of pearl, but inlayed as a single unit.

Dave

That looks great!
I’m still afraid to try engraving.
Any suggestion for a book I can learn from?
Thanks



Meek's "The Art of Engraving" is about the best book I know. It's geared towards metal engraving on guns, but it's the same principle in pearl.

I learned to engrave from Kevin Enoch (great banjo maker) and guitar maker Grit Laskin in person, and there's no substitute for that. But it's not something to be afraid of--just something to try on practice plates for a long time before doing it to an instrument. In my re-learning process, I've found that my engraving skills are lacking these days and not yet worthy of trying on an actual instrument for the most part. That's OK. Practice plates! Fear not.

Dave
Author:  dzsmith [ Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
ballbanjos wrote:
dzsmith wrote:
ballbanjos wrote:
I'll second Alan's recommendation. I use tiny drops of yellow glue instead of super glue, but it's the same principal. If they're stuck too much to the to-be-inlayed surface, I'll hit it for a second with a heat gun or an iron and the glue will let go. The key is to scribe as closely as possible to the inlay, and to route out the cavity to where you just take out the chalk line.

For big, multi piece inlays, I'll perfectly fit them together, super glue them together with pieces of toothpick on the top surface reinforcing the joints (the toothpicks will be sanded off during leveling the inlay), and trace around them/inlay them as a single unit. This also keeps unwanted filler from squeezing up between the pieces and creating lines where you don't want them. The inlay shown here is half a dozen different pieces of pearl, but inlayed as a single unit.

Dave

That looks great!
I’m still afraid to try engraving.
Any suggestion for a book I can learn from?
Thanks



Meek's "The Art of Engraving" is about the best book I know. It's geared towards metal engraving on guns, but it's the same principle in pearl.

I learned to engrave from Kevin Enoch (great banjo maker) and guitar maker Grit Laskin in person, and there's no substitute for that. But it's not something to be afraid of--just something to try on practice plates for a long time before doing it to an instrument. In my re-learning process, I've found that my engraving skills are lacking these days and not yet worthy of trying on an actual instrument for the most part. That's OK. Practice plates! Fear not.

Dave


Thanks Dave!
I have ordered the book.
I bought a shell backsplash tile and have a bunch of practice material.
Best regards,
Dan
Author:  ballbanjos [ Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
Good luck with it! Engraving is a lot of fun, but can be frustrating at times. Learning to get a graver really sharp (like all the other tools of our trade) is important. If you take a graver and lightly glance the tip of it into a fingernail, if it doesn't "stick" and bounces off--it's not sharp.

Dave
Author:  Clay S. [ Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
Hi Dan,
When you get the engraving book be sure to examine all the pages (and make sure they are all there) I bought that book quite a number of years ago from and didn't look at it closely for a couple of months. When I got to the middle of the book I found some sections were missing and some were duplicated - it was a mis-bound book. I never got around to sending it back or getting another copy. I still kick myself every time I'm reminded of it.
Author:  Kbore [ Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
First, I print a copy of my design, while its still on the cardboard, and number every piece on paper copy. Then I number the inlay piece with a sharpie. Just takes a couple of minutes and you will be glad you did for more involved inlays.

REMOVAL:
Read this from DePaul Luthier Supply: https://luthiersupply.com/howtopage.html

GLUE:
I use wood glue, a dot or two, arrange all pieces and let dry.
If you spread the glue evenly on the piece, it squeezes out and its harder to etch the design. And it harder to remove later.
If you use dots of glue, be careful when etching the design, you can break the smaller pieces that are not completely adhered.

ETCH: I haven't found an ideal way to etch. I etch each piece with a .3mm HB lead pencil (wish I had bought harder lead), then with an exacto, then with a sharp dental tool. I have used a sewing needle in a pin vise as well. I spend as much time etching as I do routing. This multi-etch has worked well for me; sometimes you can't see the exacto, but can see the pencil lead, or the dental scratch. Depends on the grain direction in relation to the the path of the etching tool(s).

RELEASE:
I use hot water on a paper towel, while heating the piece with med/low from a heat gun. Wipe, squeeze and and mop up water from the paper towel until the piece releases. Takes about 1 minute for a piece (or group of pieces) to release.

ROUTE:
I chalk the scribed lines before I start routing, but chalk/ talk/ powder doesn't work so well for me to route up to. It does however, show where the wood was not etched (doesn't seem possible after chasing the edge with three etch tools).
Someone taught me to put a tiny scotch tape flag on my bit to blow off the swarf as I route.
When you check the fit of a piece, keep it perfectly level/ parallel to your routed cavity, and drop it STRAIGHT in to test fit. If your piece is tilted even a little bit when you check for fit, you'll be unnecessarily enlarging your inlet.

GLUE:
When it's time, with every piece installed, I lightly CA each piece in a couple of places, holding the piece down with a pencil/ eraser. Finally, I mix wood dust into 12 hour epoxy and squeegee the epoxy onto every piece. THere are usually some voids/ air bubbles so it takes more filling after the initial leveling.

That's the way I do it today, it works for me. I'm no expert, but I had the same questions. Hope this auguments the other excellent advice from others that posted.

Would love to see the inlay you are using and the final work!
Author:  DennisK [ Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: strategies for doing "involved" inlay
Good process, Karl [:Y:]
Quote:
If you use dots of glue, be careful when etching the design, you can break the smaller pieces that are not completely adhered.

I press down on the piece with my thumbnail near where I'm etching to reduce the chance of breaking it this way, or popping it off by accident.

I use the StewMac scribe for etching, which is basically a fat needle that doesn't flex when you put pressure on it. Keep it sharp and it works well. In really hard woods, I may deepen the marks with an x-acto after removing the pieces (the double bevel of the x-acto blade makes it difficult to get right up to the edge of the piece, rather than half the blade thickness away).

Quote:
When you check the fit of a piece, keep it perfectly level/ parallel to your routed cavity, and drop it STRAIGHT in to test fit. If your piece is tilted even a little bit when you check for fit, you'll be unnecessarily enlarging your inlet.

That reminds me another good trick is to round over the underside edges of the inlay pieces. Especially on any sharp points. This helps them slide into the pocket more easily, and allows for less perfect pocket corners.
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