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Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=53375		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
This is what is probably an early 1800's Viennese guitar of an unknown maker.

The head stock was painted black and redrilled for unknown reasons but probably to reinstall friction pegs. But when I got all the paint off I see these interesting markings. One is just a round filled hole but the other are square filled holes. I'm wondering if this once had mechanical tuners on it and if anyone might now of such tuners that would make these markings?

Second, what were some common neck woods used back then? It looks like it could be beach wood but I don't know if that was common to use. The whole neck is ebonized black as was the fretbaord.

Back Side
Image

Top Side
Image
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
Beech was pretty commonly used.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
Thanks Alan. It does have a QS Beech look to it.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
What's the rest of it look like? That thing must have led an interesting life....
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
Most likely the square holes were for the back side of the worm gear supports, just as they are commonly done today to make some three on a plate tuners sit flush. It looks like one edge of the peghead was sanded a bit more than the other which wiped out some of the square divots. When they replaced the original tuners they may have relieved the edge on one side to make the new tuners work.
I have a tiny quint guitar that was originally a figure eight head that they "squared off" to mount "modern" (antique now) three on a plate mechanical tuners in place of what would have been pegs. [headinwall]
London plane tree wood (related to sycamore) was used by fiddle makers and has a similar appearance. It is a bit lighter in weight than beech and a bit softer.
Author:  Dave Baley [ Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
Here is the headstock of an 1898 John Haynes Tilton. The tuners made square indents in a pattern similar to yours. They are made by the peened over bottom of the posts that form the bushing for the screw mechanism on the top side. A lot of instruments in the 19th century used this type of tuner including Bay State and Martin.

If your square holes are not very deep it is likely from tuners like this. They were made by Seidel in Germany.

Dave
Author:  jfmckenna [ Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
Chris Pile wrote:
What's the rest of it look like? That thing must have led an interesting life....


Here's a few more. Yeah it's always interesting to wonder about the life of an object that is about 200 years old.

Image

One piece back too

Image

Image

Image
Author:  jfmckenna [ Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
Dave Baley wrote:
Here is the headstock of an 1898 John Haynes Tilton. The tuners made square indents in a pattern similar to yours. They are made by the peened over bottom of the posts that form the bushing for the screw mechanism on the top side. A lot of instruments in the 19th century used this type of tuner including Bay State and Martin.

If your square holes are not very deep it is likely from tuners like this. They were made by Seidel in Germany.

Dave


Bingo! That is most certainly it. That fits the pattern perfectly.
Author:  Dave m2 [ Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
Nice ripple Maple. Looks like a one piece back...? Dave
Author:  jfmckenna [ Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
Dave m2 wrote:
Nice ripple Maple. Looks like a one piece back...? Dave


It is indeed a one piece back.
Author:  Ken Nagy [ Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
Looking into guitars I heard people talking about Stauffer heads. I saw the shape, and thought they looked cool. I like different. And then I saw one of those Stauffer tuning heads with the engraved covers. Those are very cool. Very EXPENSIVE, but very cool.
I have no problem with pegs, but I do notice that the nylon strings on my arch-top go flat each day. The wound ones pretty much stay put. So I guess tuners are fine.

I have a working drawing/plan for a Staffer that a guy in Toroto drew up, and posted on his blog. It has the black ebonized neck too. It's a small little thing: 17 some inches long, and less than a foot wide, with a 610mm scale. Is the instrument you're working on similarly sized? Does it need pretty stiff strings to get enough tension to work?
Author:  jfmckenna [ Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
Ken Nagy wrote:
Looking into guitars I heard people talking about Stauffer heads. I saw the shape, and thought they looked cool. I like different. And then I saw one of those Stauffer tuning heads with the engraved covers. Those are very cool. Very EXPENSIVE, but very cool.
I have no problem with pegs, but I do notice that the nylon strings on my arch-top go flat each day. The wound ones pretty much stay put. So I guess tuners are fine.

I have a working drawing/plan for a Staffer that a guy in Toroto drew up, and posted on his blog. It has the black ebonized neck too. It's a small little thing: 17 some inches long, and less than a foot wide, with a 610mm scale. Is the instrument you're working on similarly sized? Does it need pretty stiff strings to get enough tension to work?


Ken, I just measured this one and it's very similar. Body length is 17.4in, width is 11.4in and the scale length is 620mm. That was gotten from measuring to the 12th fret and doubling but in reality the bridge is placed way off, another thing I need in this restoration. The saddle is simply a fret so I am going to fill that slot and saw another one about 3mm back.

It had strings on it when it came in and it had a really nice tone to it.

I'd like to build one of these some day. The Stauffer tuning machines are indeed very cool and as you said expensive. I cannot remember if it was here on this forum or another one but someone posted a tutorial on how to modify mandolin tuners to make some Stauffer style tuners for far less cheap and just as effective.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
I had posted a thread on modifying the shafts to create Stauffer style tuners some time back. I started another discussion rather than hijack this one. They worked O.K. for nylon, but I would do differently for steel.
Author:  Ken Nagy [ Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
jfmckenna wrote:

It had strings on it when it came in and it had a really nice tone to it.

I'd like to build one of these some day.


This is where I got the drawing from. You might have trouble finding just going to his blog; it's fairly big. Not crazy big like mine, but big. And you will get VERY distracted with cool stuff. Minimal drawing, but has key dimensions, can be printed full size, and gives bar locations and sizes of the bars that he could see through the sound hole.

The peg head isn't to scale for some reason; but you can trace the one that you have. And it DOES have a one piece maple back.

http://schreinerlutesandguitars.blogspot.com/search?q=working+drawing+stauffer
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
Beautiful guitar! Is the back open pore? French polish I suppose? Refinished?

Pat
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
Ken Nagy wrote:
jfmckenna wrote:

It had strings on it when it came in and it had a really nice tone to it.

I'd like to build one of these some day.


This is where I got the drawing from. You might have trouble finding just going to his blog; it's fairly big. Not crazy big like mine, but big. And you will get VERY distracted with cool stuff. Minimal drawing, but has key dimensions, can be printed full size, and gives bar locations and sizes of the bars that he could see through the sound hole.

The peg head isn't to scale for some reason; but you can trace the one that you have. And it DOES have a one piece maple back.

http://schreinerlutesandguitars.blogspot.com/search?q=working+drawing+stauffer


Thanks for that. I think I might make some drawings of this one too.

Pmaj7 wrote:
Beautiful guitar! Is the back open pore? French polish I suppose? Refinished?

Pat


It's hard to tell. The peghead was definitely refinished. It appears (from this thread) that it had machine tuners on it at one point and when those were replaced with friction, which was probably original, they filled those holes and refinished. But the neck itself has not been refinished by the looks of it. It's quite possible the back was but the top doesn't look that way though it very well may have been touched up by polishers over it's long life. It really is cool to take care of something so old and to think of who the luthier was (did he ever think that 200 years later someone would still be playing his instrument?), his client, and who it was passed on too over all these years. All ghosts now.
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Some detective work and, what kind of wood?
Or discussing your lutherie work with magical devices all over the world in real time.

Pat
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