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initial setup questions
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=53384		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  phavriluk [ Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  initial setup questions
I'm resetting the neck on my latest project. Fingerboard installation had an 'oops' in it. I need to revisit neck angle, which the fingerboard installation error corrupted. And I can't visit my consulting luthier, five hours away.

So....
(1) If I capo between the 2nd and 3rd fret, what are ballpark air gaps between the strings and the 1st fret? I'm assuming I can use this dimension to get close with the string slots in the nut.
(2) what's a 'good' air gap beneath the strings at the 12th fret once strung up, depressing no strings? (if it matters, this is with a 24.82" scale length.) I intend to have the straightedge resting on the frets just clear the top of the bridge. I'm assuming this will help me set the saddle height.

Thanks, folks.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: initial setup questions
Paging the ghost of Hesh....

From: viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=53151&p=698078&hilit=Hesh+nut+slot+height#p698078

1) Adjust the truss rod for nearly no relief on the treble side and more relief on the bass side IF... if the neck will do it. Compromises often have to be made because f*ctories and some builders don't dress their fret planes to have minimal relief on the treble side and more on the bass side.

2). With the thing tuned to pitch and the rod adjusted each nut slot is individually addressed with a gauged nut file that when properly used will result in a slot that can handle one size up in strings with no binding. Slots are cut very low but never to the point of the sitar sound. The lower the nut slots are cut the far fewer intonation issues that most people complain about. Additionally low slots are an absolute joy to play and our clients just melt over them to the point that it's embarrassing at times how grateful they are that they can for the first time in their lives make that F barre chord.

3). After 1 and 2 the action is set measured at the 12th, set at the saddles only, leave the rod alone and that's why we do this sequentially you should not have to back track at any point and readdress what you have already addressed. Action specs, I use my specs.... are variable for instrument type, string gauges, player attack, sort of heavy metal vomit music or not played, condition of the fret plane and if any dang drop tunings are going to be in play. A typical Strat set-up for me is 4/64th" high e at the 12th and 4.5/64th" for the low e at the 12th. A finger style acoustic OM might be 4/64th" and 5.5/64th" and so on and so forth.

4). With rod set, nut slots cut, action set at the 12th I bang out nearly every note on the thing with a heavy attack to see if it objects to what I'm telling it to do. I'm looking for buzzing and then I do full step bends up the neck looking for fretting out. If it passes this test the action is not too low for the condition of this fret plane.

5). Intonation is set with the saddles with the guitar in the playing position and tuned to pitch. On an acoustic without any way to adjust the action beyond a new saddle or a relocated saddle it's simply checked to see if it's problematic. On an electric I set the intonation as precisely as I can using the individual saddles.

6). Then I play Purple Haze (electric) and Purple Rain (acoustic) and if it does well and my playing irritates my business partner I put it in the case, fill out the bill, call the client, next.


Hope that helps. As for the distance above the 1st fret when capo is on 2-3, the least amount of space you can visibly see and also still get the slight audible tink when tapping the string down onto the first fret. I know, I know, I just did the thing I hate the most about all this which is give you an answer of "visibly low with audible tink" instead of .0005 or whatever. I'm sorry about that, it makes me crazy. :) Just go slow and get them low, it'll work out.

Brad
Author:  SteveSmith [ Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: initial setup questions
Assuming this is an acoustic

(1) 0.003" or so. I like to be close on the treble strings and a bit more on the bass strings.
(2) Depends on playing style and how level the fret board is. 6/64" bass side and 5/64" treble side is ok, what I would normally consider a heavy bluegrass action.

Don't forget to set the relief first. Capo the 1st fret and depress the strings at the body join (lots of different ways here, this is just how I do it). Measure the gap at the 7th and you want around 0.009" for a manufacturer standard number, less if the frets are level enough. After I have leveled the frets I usually set the relief at only a few thou on the treble side, bass side is higher because I level fretboards with more relief on the bass side.

Edit: Brad beat me to it. I learned to do setup at AnnArbor Guitars so what Hesh wrote is spot on.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: initial setup questions
SteveSmith wrote:
Edit: Brad beat me to it. I learned to do setup at AnnArbor Guitars so what Hesh wrote is spot on.


The more builds I complete the more I realize the value of those couple days at A2G. Seriously.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: initial setup questions
bcombs510 wrote:
SteveSmith wrote:
Edit: Brad beat me to it. I learned to do setup at AnnArbor Guitars so what Hesh wrote is spot on.


The more builds I complete the more I realize the value of those couple days at A2G. Seriously.


That's true and don't forget all the extra questions that Dave and Hesh answered about other repair stuff!
Author:  phavriluk [ Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: initial setup questions
Steve, you assumed right - - - it's an acoustic. The lights went on after I realized that building in a 'v' shaped fingerboard, apex at the body joint, skewed the setup adjustments. Very high strings, else buzzing sets in from insufficient clearance at the end of the fingerboard. So I backed up, straightened the fingerboard, and I'll set that straightedge-driven neck angle and work forward from there. I assumed if I could set the nut slot clearance and string height over the fingerboard, I'd be heading in the right direction, always respecting relief. Nice to build bolt-on necks (thanks, Rich Micheletti).
Author:  SteveSmith [ Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: initial setup questions
Sounds like you're on the right path. That flat fingerboard is a biggie (i.e. level frets). Pay close attention to the fretboard extension after the body join, many of us like to put in a bit of "fall away" which just means it slopes down from level at the body join to maybe 0.005" or 0.010" at the last fret. This helps to prevent buzzing on low actions in the area where the strings tend to move the most.
Author:  phavriluk [ Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: initial setup questions
Steve, that's just what I did when I set to undoing my mistake, a little bit of fallaway.

I very much appreciate your suggestions about nut slots. The numbers you offered allow me to string it up, put on a capo, and measure with a hope that i was in the game. Nut slots by themselves seem to me too much of an art form, I wanted something I could measure with some hope that I could see if I was out of tolerance, and in which direction.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: initial setup questions
Yeah, most of us do the nut slots by the "tink" sound when you tap on the string above the 1st fret but with those numbers you should be ok. I usually do my actions at 5/64" (low E) and 4/64" (Hi E) but that requires a level fret plane. If you get there you can certainly lower it down unless the guitar is for banging out heavy rhythm.
Author:  Freeman [ Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: initial setup questions
My procedure. With out strings remove all relief and adjust neck angle so the fret plane is just hitting or a hair over the top of the bridge. Make a nut and saddle that are too high - I would start with at least 20 or 24 thousands at the first fret and 100 ot 120 thou at the 12th. String it up and let the tension pull in some relief. Adjust the relief to 3 or 4 thousands and leave it. Lower the nut slots to give the nut action I want - maybe 14 or 16 thou. I also fret at 3 and check at 1, I want to see some gap bur very little. Bring the saddle down to give the 12th fret action that I want - maybe 60 to 90 thou. Check the intonation
Author:  phavriluk [ Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: initial setup questions
All back together. Steve's numbers seem to work out nicely. Neutral truss rod, ten thousandths of relief. Lowered the saddle on the bass side to get the string clearance (3/32') at the 12th fret. Seems to be room to lower it a bit more. Seeing all the other comments, it seems like I could taper the saddle even more on the bass side. It's nice to have goal numbers that are straightforward to use as parameters. Fallaway kinda' disappeared when the neck got reattached. But no ski jump. I liked the measurements regarding nut slot depth. Feeler gauges got some exercise. Better now than when I started. Going for my (resumed last week) guitar lesson Thursday, instructor is a good critic and a good friend.

Thanks, everybody. Every word is valuable.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: initial setup questions
Great [:Y:] As you continue doing setups you will start to get a feel for it and you'll be able to dial things in even better.
Author:  phavriluk [ Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: initial setup questions
I'm just delighted. There's all kinds of what seems to me to be gratuitous precision in adjusting neck, fingerboard, nut, saddle and frets that fogs up understanding. Nice to get it done in independent but related layers.
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