I'm surprised your local woodcraft doesn't have hot hide glue. Old Brown Glue is HHG with an additive to keep it liquid at room temp. I don't have any experience using it for fret slots, but it should work.
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| Author: | phavriluk [ Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | fret installation techniques |
Might as well take the time to learn to do it right. So far (6 instruments) I've pressed/hammered the frets into the fingerboard and used nothing but the tangs on the frets to hold them in place. I've seen occasional mention of using glues (elmer's white glue, fish glue, CA) to help matters along. So...does applying glue in the channels before installation (and CA after installation) improve the quality of a fret installation, and are there downsides to such techniques? And if quality is improved, is any particular kind of adhesive preferable? I suspect the air-drying glues serve to fill the slots and allow the fret tangs more to grab onto once it dries, but I'm guessing. CA has its own unique properties, among them strong binding of metal to wood, which I imagine can cause all kinds of adventures when replacing a fret. I'm sure that responses can vary and I'd love to hear of benefits/drawbacks/difficulties of using anything to add to just plain hammering a fret into place, and for that matter, good practices for them what hammers. Thanks! |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
I like fish, slippery to help the frets seat and dries hard. Don't know of any downsides. CA I reserve for the fret ends (bound boards usually) or a problem fret. A soldering iron makes short work of removal of CA'd frets. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
Colin pretty well covered it - water based glues (fish, hide, or titebond) to lubricate and make the fret seat easier, and CA to hold the ends down |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
Big fan of hide for frets. Dries rock hard and you may think me crazy but I think that has a positive effect on tone. One thing for sure, I don’t think you want empty space under your frets. A syringe with a 20G needle is a good way to lay it in a fret slot. |
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| Author: | jshelton [ Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
I use a triangle file on the top of the fret slots to ease installation and removal (a tip from this wonderful forum) and use black 5 minute epoxy on the fret ends mainly as a filler. As mentioned above a soldering iron instantly softens the epoxy if you need to remove the fret. I also make the slots slightly wider than recommended (.025 instead of .023) which makes installation a breeze. Caution: I only build nylon string guitars. |
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| Author: | phavriluk [ Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
Colin, my recent adventures with bound fingerboards and ornery fret ends come to mind... Thanks for the companionship in misery, nice to know I'm not the first person to have the pleasure. Is there any hardware-store availability of fish glue? |
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| Author: | Ken Lewis [ Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
Similar to what Colin said 'cept I use hide. Fills the void under the fret and lubricates the install. Only use CA for stubborn fret end. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
I used to fret via Don Teeter's method of floating the frets in epoxy, but I finally went back to just hammering them in with a copper hammer. I use hide glue on dark wood, and Titebond on maple. And glue or no glue - I use a soldering iron to heat the frets when pulling them. By now I spend an inordinate amount of time prepping the fingerboard before fretting - getting it just so. Bevel the top edges of the slots with a triangular file, get them nice and clean, glue down all chips or fill voids before hand, and make sure the fingerboard is smooth and level. Helps them go in easy, and fit flush. Many times it takes nothing to finish them off nicely, and of course - I radius the fret ends with a triangular file. A proper fretting job is a thing of beauty, and a source of pride in my skills. It's very satisfying to me when I do a good job. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
Another HHG user here. I get a lot of use out of my StewMac fret barber, grinding them down until the frets fit just right, so I like to have some glue in there as insurance against them coming out since the barbs don't have their sharp tips anymore. Not that hide glue actually bonds to metal, but it does dry hard, mechanically locking them in. I also like that hide glue can be cleaned off with water even after it's dried, so you don't have to be so careful about getting all the residue like with Titebond and such. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
I use Fish glue and load up a syringe with a needle that fits just about in the fret slot. Inject the glue along the length minus about 1/8th in at each end as the squeeze out will fill that, and then hammer the frets in. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
I've used CA and HHG; both seem to work fine although I use HHG now. Black CA from StewMac for fret ends on unbound ebony boards. What Chris said about fretboard prep - it's worth taking the time and get it level, cleaned up, fix chips and so on. Makes a big difference. |
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| Author: | phavriluk [ Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
No joy finding fish glue locally, and both LMI and Stew-Mac charge virtually as much for shipping glue to me as for the glue. I was looking for glue, not gold leaf. I did find a local source for 'Old Brown Glue'. Is that good for use in this application? Over the counter at Woodcraft. Thanks! |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
I'm surprised your local woodcraft doesn't have hot hide glue. Old Brown Glue is HHG with an additive to keep it liquid at room temp. I don't have any experience using it for fret slots, but it should work.
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| Author: | DennisK [ Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
Old brown should be fine. The weirdest thing about it is that any squeeze-out will form a waterproof film on the surface, preventing it from fully drying. It stays kind of rubbery feeling. However, re-heating seems to eliminate it. So heat the neck after you get all the frets in, to be sure all the glue in the slots will dry hard. I use OBG for closing the box, and hold the guitar over an open flame on the kitchen stove after I get all the spool clamps on to reactivate it like regular HHG. I'm not sure if it's really necessary, but it makes me feel better. |
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| Author: | phavriluk [ Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
HHG seems to attract a near-religious audience. Well, for an amateur builder who is on a pace to build three guitars a year, I have no intention of tooling up with all the stuff to heat up some glue in a pot so I can help set some frets. HHG working time is nothing I want to wrestle with when I can use Titebond Extend straight out of the bottle any time I want to assemble wood parts. One-person amateur shop. No way. Woodcraft has HHG, I don't want to deal with it. Old Brown Glue is just my speed. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
I have never used hot hide glue on frets, always the bottled Franklin stuff or Old Brown glue. You are gap filling and just want something that dries rock hard and will support the fret. I do use HHG for construction for various reasons but that is a different ball game than frets. My own feeling is that bottled hide glue is great for frets but HHG is probably overkill. Opinions may differ
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| Author: | Ruby50 [ Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
I have used OBG for furniture several times and am very happy with it. I have glued 2 bridges with it that are still holding at 3-4 years. I just warm it in a bowl of tap-hot water. I understand the guy who makes it still makes every bottle on the stove in his house. Dennis - speaking of stoves, using something like a hair dryer to heat up your body sounds a lot safer than suspending it over the flame!! Wasn't there an Asian maker charirng his tops in a pattern? Ed |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
You can use Titebond in the fret slots too. Almost any glue will do there really. I'd dare say you can even use Titebond liquid hide glue there. As for OBG... I make my own OBG. In fact I like it so much it's just about all I use now when I go to use HHG. Add salt in the right ratio's with hide glue and water and you have your own semi-liguid hide glue. I put it in bottles and when it's time to use it I put the bottle in a 140deg F water bath. It flows beautifully and gives me plenty of working time. |
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| Author: | phavriluk [ Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
Thanks, folks. |
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| Author: | bftobin [ Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
I've used Lee Valley cabinatemakers glue for the frets. Dries as hard as HHG and cleans up like Titebond. I also cut a slightly wider slot in ebony than what I use in rosewood, but you can also take a little off the barbs with a Dremel. Brent |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
I have used CA on almost all of my fretboards, most of which are bound. On my last guitar I challenged myself to use hot hide glue for the entire construction and when it came time to fret it I just fired up the glue pot. No big deal, worked great. |
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| Author: | Ed Haney [ Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
I use HHG and press the frets in with an arbor press (modified Harbor Freight arbor here: https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=arbor%20press which was about $20 a few years ago when I bought it. I drilled out the end of the plunger and installed the Stew Mac fret press caul here: https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-a ... serts.html ) I press in all the frets in the fretboard before gluing the board on the neck. So I know the fretboard is straight, not back bowed, when it is glued down. I don't have any dents in the fretboard anymore from an inaccurate hammer blow or frets popping up on one side or another when using the press. Among others, Dan E.'s book is a good resource IMHO. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
phavriluk wrote: HHG seems to attract a near-religious audience. Well, for an amateur builder who is on a pace to build three guitars a year, I have no intention of tooling up with all the stuff to heat up some glue in a pot so I can help set some frets. HHG working time is nothing I want to wrestle with when I can use Titebond Extend straight out of the bottle any time I want to assemble wood parts. One-person amateur shop. No way. Woodcraft has HHG, I don't want to deal with it. Old Brown Glue is just my speed. INFIDEL!!! You shall pay for your heresy!  Kidding aside, Old Brown Glue is just hot hide glue with enough urea added to stop it from gelling at room temperature. It does flow better if you heat it up a bit prior to use. You can use it cold, but it works better when it’s warmed up. It is slower to harden fully, due to the urea. But it does harden eventually. Fret slots are a pretty good place to use it. And while you should use whatever glue you want, it might make sense to keep an open mind about hot hide glue. It has its virtues and hassles, like all adhesives. You might find it to be ideal for something at some point, and there are things you can do to minimize the hassles. I practice a soft form of evangelism. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
Ed Haney wrote: I use HHG and press the frets in with an arbor press (modified Harbor Freight arbor here: https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=arbor%20press which was about $20 a few years ago when I bought it. I drilled out the end of the plunger and installed the Stew Mac fret press caul here: https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-a ... serts.html ) I press in all the frets in the fretboard before gluing the board on the neck. So I know the fretboard is straight, not back bowed, when it is glued down. I don't have any dents in the fretboard anymore from an inaccurate hammer blow or frets popping up on one side or another when using the press. Among others, Dan E.'s book is a good resource IMHO. Do you fret the fretboard then glue it to the neck or are you using that setup on the whole neck? Also do you find that using this method you have to do less fret leveling? |
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| Author: | phavriluk [ Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fret installation techniques |
Most interesting...Fretboard is radiused at 16 inches. This time I bought 'pre-radiused' fretwire, a bunch of one-fret lengths, choosing 12-inch radius so's I could be forcing the ends down when pressing in the frets. I opened the package marked 'pre-radiused(12")', and whaddaya know, the frets are nicely radiused at 16 inches and they're too short to go through the bender, which needs contact at all three wheels. Questions are, this ever happen to anybody, did it matter anyway, and if it mattered, what was a resolution that worked? And is my using 12-inch-radius fretwire on a 16-inch-radius fretboard overdoing the bend? Thanks! Forgotten response to Ed Haney: I did the very same thing with a HF 1-ton arbor press (it was on sale and I had a coupon). I was right impressed with how easy it was to drill the pillar for the caul's shank and a setscrew. |
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