Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Thu Nov 28, 2024 6:34 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:13 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5968
Something has a taste for hide glue. Every bit of glue that held this guitar together seems to have disappeared. It has become a "guitar kit". A few others have developed the same disease. Any ideas what may have done this?
This was a Zogbaum and Fairchild guitar and is surprisingly lightly braced. Some of the braces are paper thin, and the bridge plate is no thicker than the typical back graft and made of spruce.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:28 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:47 pm
Posts: 2523
First name: Jay
Last Name: De Rocher
City: Bothell
State: Washington
Based on the thread title, I was hesitant to click on it half expecting a photo of something like the wreckage of a guitar slammed to the floor by a buffing wheel. Thankfully, not that. Looks like that one can go back together again.

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:25 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5968
Any thoughts on what may have caused it to come apart so completely? If you touch any part it comes right off as though it was never glued.
Here is another Zogbaum and Fairchild guitar built by John C Haines showing Tilton's other patent improvement - the dowel stick that ran from endblock to head block.
https://acousticguitar.com/great-acoust ... or-guitar/

On the one I have it appears someone removed the dowel stick and possibly added a pinned bridge - although it looks original. The plantilla of the guitar is the same but the bracing scheme is slightly different.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:22 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:47 pm
Posts: 2523
First name: Jay
Last Name: De Rocher
City: Bothell
State: Washington
Any chance the guitar lived in a place where it was exposed to chronic high humidity?

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:21 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5968
J De Rocher wrote:
Any chance the guitar lived in a place where it was exposed to chronic high humidity?


That is a possibility - this is Maryland, and we do have high humidity a good portion of the year. Looking at some of the others I've found on line it seems like a fair number of them have come apart at the seams at some point in their life.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:51 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6256
Location: Virginia
Looks like you got your hands full on that one.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:47 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 7379
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Repair
I got a J45 in some years ago where the hide glue was mostly powder, it was a reassembly project too. I do know that it spent a number of years in a shed in rural Alabama exposed to humidity and seasonal changes.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:11 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:02 pm
Posts: 98
First name: Jonathan
Last Name: coleman
City: rome
State: ny
Zip/Postal Code: 13440
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Holy cleats Batman!!!

Did they not apply enough hide glue?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:40 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5968
I'm sure they applied enough glue 150 years ago. It only came apart this past year. It looked perfectly fine until I picked it up, and then it fell completely apart. The few joints that might appear to be together are only holding on by hen's teeth.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:41 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:02 pm
Posts: 98
First name: Jonathan
Last Name: coleman
City: rome
State: ny
Zip/Postal Code: 13440
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Holy crap! I hadn’t a clue lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:02 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:52 pm
Posts: 3073
First name: Don
Last Name: Parker
City: Charleston
State: West Virginia
Zip/Postal Code: 25314
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I think the builder must have used that glue that Gilligan made from the sap of the trees on the island.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:03 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:17 pm
Posts: 128
First name: Dave
Last Name: Baley
City: Goleta
State: California
Zip/Postal Code: 93117
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
I assume you know it is a Zogbaum and Fairchild guitar because of a medallion in the sound hole?
I just finished completely rebuilding a Tilton Improvement guitar labeled Z and F on both the medallion and the tail piece.
There were builders other than Haynes that were sold under the Z and B label (they were retailers not builders) and they may have used a pinned bridge but if there was a Tilton bar running the length of the guitar at some point it is unlikely the pinned bridge is original.
Check the end of the guitar above the end pin and see if there were three holes there previously for a tail piece.
Also check the end of the headstock for a model number and serial number.
I did not have a problem with glue joints coming apart but I did note that there was not a lot of glue and, if a couple of cases where the braces had extreme pressure on them, the glue failed before the wood did.
Once I did all the restoration work (it was a mess when I got it) it sounds great and plays nicely. Can't find BRW like this anymore.
These pix were taken before the work began.
Dave


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 54 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com