Official Luthiers Forum!

A friend of mine wants to ship a brazilian rosewood guitar from US to Canada...


What are the "rules" ?

As the guitar contains an Appendix I species, it will require a CITES export permit issued by USFWS ($75), an import permit issued by Environment and Climate Change Canada (free), and can cross the border only at a USFWS designated port.
The requirements for approval vary under three scenarios:
1. Sale of the guitar in Canada (must prove that BRW content predates the 1992 signing of CITES)
2. Guitar accompanied by owner into Canada and both return to US (musician or trade show) — can also obtain a multi-use permit (“passport”) good for 3 years for $200, renewable for $100.
3. Permanent relocation of personal effects into Canada.

The “rules” are explained in the permit process for each scenario.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks!

It's a crying shame that honest people have to be treated like criminals...

I don’t understand why you think CITES procedures for protection of critically endangered species, like BRW, are treating people like criminals?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

"It's a crying shame that honest people have to be treated like criminals..."

Here lately it seems the Media is wanting to treat criminals like they were honest people....

no one is being treated like a criminal this is about keeping the CITIES regs and saving the resource. There is a lot of paperwork and the regs are there for a good reason. The new CITIES regs help making traveling with a guitar easier but they are there for a reason.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

How do you prove it was pre 1992? I've got sets that were cut in the 1950's and there is no way of proving anything except that the sets are exceptional and you don't see stuff like that anymore. Hardly proof though. Not that I have plans of selling out of the US but still.I imagine there are lots of sets out there like that. And a 30 year old receipt or older would be faded away by now too. And even then how would they know a receipt is not counterfeit.

So I wonder what constitutes proof?

A man's got ta know his limitations.... and so does a guitar built out of Brazilian rosewood. There may be some borders it can't cross without proof that the wood was preban. That proof may not be possible to obtain.
I have some scraps of elephant ivory and a short section of tusk that originally held a thermometer - I'm sure this stuff is preban (I bought it before any bans) but I have no way to prove that, and even if I could lacey limits the sale. I may use it for personal instruments, and use other types of ivory if it's something I intend to sell.
The same is true for BRW. It is less restricted than ivory - in country sales are permitted, but international sales are limited to preban materials that are documented. To do otherwise would make the bans unenforceable.

The fact the people are winging about the CITES rules mean it is working as intended. That is the whole point, to stop international trade in endangered species so they don't go extinct. In the case of Brazilian Rosewood it is critically endangered - i.e. very close to complete extinction, hence Appendix I.

What about all the a Brazilian Rosewood they sell on eBay?
None of that has any paperwork.
Why isn’t anyone cracking down on that? Seems like an easy thing to do.

A couple years ago I sold a piece of Cuban mahogany to a customer and PayPal clamped down on my whole account not just on the money from the transaction but everything I had in my account and they wouldn’t let me access my money.
The Cuban mahogany was from Saint Croix it was perfectly legal.
Cuban mahogany grows in several different places in the world and like I said mine was totally legal but I had Answer all these questions in writing before they would release the money from my account


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BRW in the US can be sold freely in the US, without CITES restrictions (can’t speak to Lacey restrictions). I presume that is the case with the eBay stuff you’re referring to.
Cuban mahogany is on Appendix II of CITES. Regardless of where it originated (it grows also in Florida), the wood can’t be traded across an international border without a CITES export permit. It’s hard to comment on how “perfectly legal” was the Cuban you sold.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It was brought it The US 30 years ago...

My point is that it was paypal,not the government that in essence seized my money until I told them that "I bought it at a garage sale", which seemed to somehow satisfy them.

It had nothing to do with CITES , to them it was the same reason you can't import Cuban cigars into the US. Once they see the word "Cuban" t gets flagged by paypal and ebay.

So , I guess all those guys on ebay brought the brazilian rosewood into the country legally from Brazil?

"So , I guess all those guys on ebay brought the brazilian rosewood into the country legally from Brazil?"

That is the assumption, as long as they aren't selling it out of the country in which they live. To cross a border it needs proof it was legally sourced.
eBay and paypal are in their own little worlds. They are just barely on the right side of the fault line.